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Adam Wainwright significant elbow injury


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QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Feb 24, 2011 -> 04:31 PM)
I can't believe those that are dissing Pujols. He's the greatest player of the modern era. He should get paid the maximum amount. 10 years? Probably not. But I've got no problem with the salary. Jason Bay is making almost $20 million, people!

Dude, seriously, if Pujols would have signed for 5/$150 or 6/$175, the Cardinals would have been all over it. The length is the whole problem.

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QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Feb 24, 2011 -> 03:31 PM)
I can't believe those that are dissing Pujols. He's the greatest player of the modern era. He should get paid the maximum amount. 10 years? Probably not. But I've got no problem with the salary. Jason Bay is making almost $20 million, people!

 

I would disagree with that. I would take Alex Rodriguez, KenGriffey Jr. and Barry Bonds before him and that's just position players. There are a number of pitchers i would probably put ahead of him as well.

 

Depending on your definition of modern area Hank Aaron, Mickey Mantle and Roberto Clemente were all superior players compared to him.

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QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 24, 2011 -> 03:59 PM)
I would disagree with that. I would take Alex Rodriguez, KenGriffey Jr. and Barry Bonds before him and that's just position players. There are a number of pitchers i would probably put ahead of him as well.

 

Depending on your definition of modern area Hank Aaron, Mickey Mantle and Roberto Clemente were all superior players compared to him.

 

He's definitely been the best player in the past decade.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...=2001&ind=0

 

A-Rod is close and Manny is close offensively, but Pujols bests those guys by a decent margin.

Edited by chw42
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QUOTE (chw42 @ Feb 24, 2011 -> 04:06 PM)
He's definitely been the best player in the past decade.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...=2001&ind=0

 

A-Rod is close and Manny is close offensively, but Pujols bests those guys by a decent margin.

Rodriguez is close enough that I'll take his offense with good to great defense SS or 3B as opposed to Puljols at 1B.

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QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 24, 2011 -> 03:59 PM)
I would disagree with that. I would take Alex Rodriguez, KenGriffey Jr. and Barry Bonds before him and that's just position players. There are a number of pitchers i would probably put ahead of him as well.

 

Depending on your definition of modern area Hank Aaron, Mickey Mantle and Roberto Clemente were all superior players compared to him.

 

Yeah. I should've said since 2001.

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QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 24, 2011 -> 04:11 PM)
Rodriguez is close enough that I'll take his offense with good to great defense SS or 3B as opposed to Puljols at 1B.

 

A-Rod was once a great defender. He's pretty mediocre now. Pujols' defense hasn't regressed as fast since he's a 1B.

 

Plus, WAR takes positioning into account and A-Rod has a a 1.5 win advantage every season from positioning alone. He had a 2 win advantage as a SS. Yet Pujols still has a higher WAR count in the past 10 seasons. I think that should say something about Albert's offensive and defensive abilities.

Edited by chw42
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QUOTE (chw42 @ Feb 24, 2011 -> 04:17 PM)
A-Rod was once a great defender. He's pretty mediocre now. Pujols' defense hasn't regressed as fast since he's a 1B.

 

Plus, WAR takes positioning into account and A-Rod has a a 1.5 win advantage every season from positioning alone. He had a 2 win advantage as a SS. Yet Pujols still has a higher WAR count in the past 10 seasons. I think that should say something about Albert's offensive and defensive abilities.

 

Puljols is the better hitter. However, from the position stand point the better defense at a more important position would probably win out. I'm referring to the whole career not just as the players are today.

 

As far as the WAR goes, I still think it's an invalid stat. It makes for good discussion and is probably the best attempt to compare players over different eras and comparing the value of pitchers and position players. However, as a way to compare position players to position players in the same timeframe, I'm not a big fan from a statistical point of view.

 

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QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 24, 2011 -> 04:32 PM)
Puljols is the better hitter. However, from the position stand point the better defense at a more important position would probably win out. I'm referring to the whole career not just as the players are today.

 

As far as the WAR goes, I still think it's an invalid stat. It makes for good discussion and is probably the best attempt to compare players over different eras and comparing the value of pitchers and position players. However, as a way to compare position players to position players in the same timeframe, I'm not a big fan from a statistical point of view.

 

Positioning is actually one of the things that WAR does the best, IMO. Its gray areas are defense and the concept of replacement value (not consistent in every system).

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In the past 4 seasons, here's what Dave Duncan has done with some relatively s***ty pitchers

 

Jeff Suppan 2010 - 3.84 ERA, 70.1 IP (his ERA was 7.84 with Milwaukee)

Jake Westbrook 2010 - 3.48 ERA, 75 IP (ERA of 4.65 with Cleveland)

Joel Pineiro 2007 & 2009 - 3.96 ERA, 63.2 IP (5.03 with Boston), 3.49 ERA in 214 IP (did have a 5.15 ERA in 08, so it's not all good)

Braden Looper 2008 - 4.16 ERA (4.94 ERA in 07 in his first full year of starting)

Todd Wellemeyer 2007 & 2008 - 3.11 ERA in 63.2 IP, 3.71 ERA in 191.2 IP (career 5.20 ERA before that)

Kyle Lohse 2008 - 3.78 ERA (career 4.82 ERA before that)

 

They've also gotten three seasons out of Chris Carpenter where he finished in the top 3 in the Cy Young balloting, including one year where he won it. He had an ERA of 4.83 with Toronto. He also missed virtually 2 full years in 2007 and 2008...they were bad in 07, but won 86 games (and finished 4th) in 2008.

 

I'm not suggesting that they are suddenly going to be able to replace Wainwright with some scrapheap pitcher, but this doesn't kill them yet.

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QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Feb 24, 2011 -> 04:31 PM)
I can't believe those that are dissing Pujols. He's the greatest player of the modern era. He should get paid the maximum amount. 10 years? Probably not. But I've got no problem with the salary. Jason Bay is making almost $20 million, people!

 

Not many people are going to argue that he's not the best player of the last 10 years. I don't like the fact that he put it on the Cardinals to sign Holliday to give them a better chance of re-signing him, and then he's going to ask for the biggest contract in the history of the game on top of that. Now with the news that he likely wouldn't even accept a trade this season, he's coming off as much more of a dick than I ever would have thought.

Edited by Milkman delivers
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