2011 MLB Catch-All Thread

[LittleHurt05]

If there's any guy in MLB who's burned their bridge to everyone...

 

It doesn't help that his production went downhill from the day he signed with the North Siders. Teams are willing to put up with the madness if you can hit, but he's not too good at that anymore either.

 

I didn't realize that the Athletics traded Andre Ethier to LA for Bradley. They got 115 games in a season and a half from him and a border line MLB pitcher from SD to dump him. I'd say Beane lost that trade.

[bigruss]

"In MLB".

Well, Bradley most likely won't be in the "MLB" for long too.

[Balta1701]

I didn't realize that the Athletics traded Andre Ethier to LA for Bradley. They got 115 games in a season and a half from him and a border line MLB pitcher from SD to dump him. I'd say Beane lost that trade.

Could you imagine the complaining if KW had ever done a deal that bad?

[bigruss]

Could you imagine the complaining if KW had ever done a deal that bad?

I can be harsh on KW, but any sane fan will realize that a GM will make a bad move once in a while, it's baseball and it happens. The best GMs make other moves (draft, trades, FA, international signings, etc) that pretty much cover up those bad moves.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I can be harsh on KW, but any sane fan will realize that a GM will make a bad move once in a while, it's baseball and it happens. The best GMs make other moves (draft, trades, FA, international signings, etc) that pretty much cover up those bad moves.

 

Exactly. It's the succession of bad moves that inspires the KW ire.

[bigruss]

Exactly. It's the succession of bad moves that inspires the KW ire.

Baseball is a game of recovery, the speed in which a hitter, pitcher, team, GM, etc. can recover from a mistake will be a main factor on how good the individual or team will be.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

I just want to say that for the White Sox to get to the point that you guys want, it's going to take, at the very minimum, 5 years. Said changes would require a complete organizational shift in philosophy, because what they're doing in the minors, from top to bottom, clearly is not preparing these players well enough for the major leagues. So you have to bring in new coaches, new front office personnel, and new players. It's going to take 3-5 years to get those players prepared for what the White Sox want them to do at the major league level, and then you have to worry about getting the right players in place at the highest level.

 

Perhaps this is something you can incorporate along the way, but I don't believe that. The Yankees and Red Sox have been able to get away from it because they've spent anywhere between 50-100% more than the rest of the league during these transitional periods. That's not to say that the White Sox aren't spending at all - they quite clearly are - but they simply don't have the resources to "purchase" playoff appearances. The teams with similar payrolls to them are teams like the Cubs, Dodgers, Angels, and Mets - no surprise that they are all in the 3 largest markets in the country - and those teams have only been so-so at getting to the playoffs and only the Angels - 10 years ago - have had success in the playoffs, perhaps suggesting that part of their success had to do with the suckage of the A's, Rangers, and Mariners as opposed to them actually being very good. It doesn't surprise me in the least that they struggled last year when a couple other good teams came along and it won't surprise me this year if they finish 3rd in the division. The Sox are also similar to the Twins, Tigers, and Giants who have had varying (used quite loosely) degrees of success over the past 2-5 years.

 

Oh, and this is by far the team's highest payroll ever, by like $20 mill.

 

Every other young and successful team around the league has taken their lumps, and they've usually done so for around 10 years. I don't think it would take the Sox 10 years because they do have the financial capabilities to make it work, but it certainly shouldn't surprise anyone if it does. If they were to sell off and go into a complete rebuild, it's going to be at the expense of the major league team until like 2016 at the very earliest. There are going to be an exorbitant amount of people who are upset about it and attendance will almost certainly drop to the bottom 3rd of the league again.

Edited May 11, 2011 by witesoxfan

[Milkman delivers]

I just want to say that for the White Sox to get to the point that you guys want, it's going to take, at the very minimum, 5 years. Said changes would require a complete organizational shift in philosophy, because what they're doing in the minors, from top to bottom, clearly is not preparing these players well enough for the major leagues. So you have to bring in new coaches, new front office personnel, and new players. It's going to take 3-5 years to get those players prepared for what the White Sox want them to do at the major league level, and then you have to worry about getting the right players in place at the highest level.

 

Perhaps this is something you can incorporate along the way, but I don't believe that. The Yankees and Red Sox have been able to get away from it because they've spent anywhere between 50-100% more than the rest of the league during these transitional periods. That's not to say that the White Sox aren't spending at all - they quite clearly are - but they simply don't have the resources to "purchase" playoff appearances. The teams with similar payrolls to them are teams like the Cubs, Dodgers, Angels, and Mets - no surprise that they are all in the 3 largest markets in the country - and those teams have only been so-so at getting to the playoffs and only the Angels - 10 years ago - have had success in the playoffs, perhaps suggesting that part of their success had to do with the suckage of the A's, Rangers, and Mariners as opposed to them actually being very good. It doesn't surprise me in the least that they struggled last year when a couple other good teams came along and it won't surprise me this year if they finish 3rd in the division. The Sox are also similar to the Twins, Tigers, and Giants who have had varying (used quite loosely) degrees of success over the past 2-5 years.

 

Oh, and this is by far the team's highest payroll ever, by like $20 mill.

 

Every other young and successful team around the league has taken their lumps, and they've usually done so for around 10 years. I don't think it would take the Sox 10 years because they do have the financial capabilities to make it work, but it certainly shouldn't surprise anyone if it does. If they were to sell off and go into a complete rebuild, it's going to be at the expense of the major league team until like 2016 at the very earliest. There are going to be an exorbitant amount of people who are upset about it and attendance will almost certainly drop to the bottom 3rd of the league again.

 

I'm in.

 

And in regards to payroll, it's certainly going to suffer at the hands of their underachievement anyway.

[High Mileage]

Five years, IF you're lucky. Really, really lucky.

[caulfield12]

I just want to say that for the White Sox to get to the point that you guys want, it's going to take, at the very minimum, 5 years. Said changes would require a complete organizational shift in philosophy, because what they're doing in the minors, from top to bottom, clearly is not preparing these players well enough for the major leagues. So you have to bring in new coaches, new front office personnel, and new players. It's going to take 3-5 years to get those players prepared for what the White Sox want them to do at the major league level, and then you have to worry about getting the right players in place at the highest level.

 

Perhaps this is something you can incorporate along the way, but I don't believe that. The Yankees and Red Sox have been able to get away from it because they've spent anywhere between 50-100% more than the rest of the league during these transitional periods. That's not to say that the White Sox aren't spending at all - they quite clearly are - but they simply don't have the resources to "purchase" playoff appearances. The teams with similar payrolls to them are teams like the Cubs, Dodgers, Angels, and Mets - no surprise that they are all in the 3 largest markets in the country - and those teams have only been so-so at getting to the playoffs and only the Angels - 10 years ago - have had success in the playoffs, perhaps suggesting that part of their success had to do with the suckage of the A's, Rangers, and Mariners as opposed to them actually being very good. It doesn't surprise me in the least that they struggled last year when a couple other good teams came along and it won't surprise me this year if they finish 3rd in the division. The Sox are also similar to the Twins, Tigers, and Giants who have had varying (used quite loosely) degrees of success over the past 2-5 years.

 

Oh, and this is by far the team's highest payroll ever, by like $20 mill.

 

Every other young and successful team around the league has taken their lumps, and they've usually done so for around 10 years. I don't think it would take the Sox 10 years because they do have the financial capabilities to make it work, but it certainly shouldn't surprise anyone if it does. If they were to sell off and go into a complete rebuild, it's going to be at the expense of the major league team until like 2016 at the very earliest. There are going to be an exorbitant amount of people who are upset about it and attendance will almost certainly drop to the bottom 3rd of the league again.

 

We're already in the bottom 3rd of attendance, it's just that we can generate higher revenues due to our market, broadcast rights/regional sports network/WGN, average ticket prices, promotions/advertising, etc.

 

The 80's rebuilding effort was painful but finally ended with Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, Sosa, Alvarez, Radinsky, etc., arriving at the same time.

 

We "rebuilt" in a way after the 97/98 seasons (it was kind of a two year movement of dumping higher salaries) and were back in the playoffs by 2000 with a team led by Thomas, Konerko, Ordonez and El Caballo.

 

I'd say 3 years with our payroll and the Twins falling apart too, although there's always the possibility that the Indians and Royals will delay our success until 2016 or 2017. You just wonder how much the Indians' payroll can come up....they're going to have to have success for 2-3 seasons in a row to start closing in on their 1990's-2002 attendance numbers with all the consecutive sellouts.

 

Otherwise, they'll have to continue to part with their higher priced pieces like Carmona as they get into Years 5 & 6 of their contracts.

Edited May 11, 2011 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

We're already in the bottom 3rd of attendance, it's just that we can generate higher revenues due to our market, average ticket prices, promotions/advertising, etc.

 

The 80's rebuilding effort was painful but finally ended with Thomas, Ventura, McDowell, Sosa, Alvarez, Radinsky, etc., arriving at the same time.

 

We "rebuilt" in a way after the 97/98 seasons (it was kind of a two year movement of dumping higher salaries) and were back in the playoffs in 2000.

 

I'd say 3 years with our payroll and the Twins falling apart too, although there's always the possibility that the Indians and Royals will delay our success until 2016 or 2017. You just wonder how much the Indians' payroll can come up....they're going to have to have success for 2-3 seasons in a row to start closing in on their 1990's-2002 attendance numbers with all the consecutive sellouts.

 

Otherwise, they'll have to continue to part with their higher priced pieces like Carmona as they get into Years 5 & 6 of their contracts.

 

Rebuilt to a fluke division winner in 2000 that was 23 games over .500 in the first half of the season and saw Cleveland close the division lead to 5 games by the end of the season after having 32 different pitchers appear in games. They lost quite a few players to injury in 2001 and ended up finishing .500, but those teams were built almost exclusively on the offense and really didn't have much of a chance to have any sort of sustained success. They had a chance to have a really good team in 2003, but neither 2002 nor 2004 were that good of teams either. That's not much of a rebuild.

 

To rebuild the way people here have and the way I suggested, it's going to take far longer than 3 years. If the Sox try to rebuild with the same organizational philosophy of trading away young, talented players that they "think" will fail or don't "project" well to the majors according to them but keep those guys that they do feel strongly about, they will be left with the same exact situation they're in now.

 

The only team I can think of in the majors that is not the Yankees or Red Sox that has been able to do what the White Sox would be trying to do is the Phillies. They finished in 2nd or 3rd place for like 5 straight seasons, Gillick came on for Ed Wade, and the first move he made was dealing Thome for Rowand, Gonzalez, and Haigwood. They had some dude named Ryan Howard waiting in the wings. On top of that, they had Utley at 2B, Rollins at SS, Burrell in LF, and Abreu in RF - who they traded in 2006 along with Cory Lidle for 4 prospects, none of whom did much of anything in the majors (though Monasterios looks OK for the Dodgers). They still had Brett Myers and Cole Hamels in the rotation too, and a young Madson coming up. There had a good, young core of players to build around, so it didn't take much, and they were STILL selling off.

 

The White Sox don't have an offensive core like that. It's going to take quite a bit more to build something in Chicago.

[caulfield12]

Rebuilt to a fluke division winner in 2000 that was 23 games over .500 in the first half of the season and saw Cleveland close the division lead to 5 games by the end of the season after having 32 different pitchers appear in games. They lost quite a few players to injury in 2001 and ended up finishing .500, but those teams were built almost exclusively on the offense and really didn't have much of a chance to have any sort of sustained success. They had a chance to have a really good team in 2003, but neither 2002 nor 2004 were that good of teams either. That's not much of a rebuild.

 

To rebuild the way people here have and the way I suggested, it's going to take far longer than 3 years. If the Sox try to rebuild with the same organizational philosophy of trading away young, talented players that they "think" will fail or don't "project" well to the majors according to them but keep those guys that they do feel strongly about, they will be left with the same exact situation they're in now.

 

The only team I can think of in the majors that is not the Yankees or Red Sox that has been able to do what the White Sox would be trying to do is the Phillies. They finished in 2nd or 3rd place for like 5 straight seasons, Gillick came on for Ed Wade, and the first move he made was dealing Thome for Rowand, Gonzalez, and Haigwood. They had some dude named Ryan Howard waiting in the wings. On top of that, they had Utley at 2B, Rollins at SS, Burrell in LF, and Abreu in RF - who they traded in 2006 along with Cory Lidle for 4 prospects, none of whom did much of anything in the majors (though Monasterios looks OK for the Dodgers). They still had Brett Myers and Cole Hamels in the rotation too, and a young Madson coming up. There had a good, young core of players to build around, so it didn't take much, and they were STILL selling off.

 

The White Sox don't have an offensive core like that. It's going to take quite a bit more to build something in Chicago.

 

I still think it's a lot easier to rebuild/repair an offense than to find quality/young starting pitching.

 

I guess a lot of this is dependent on Peavy, whether he can return to 1/2 starter form and/or be traded to free up payroll. Of course, we'd prefer the former, because in all likelihood that money wouldn't remain in the payroll if we tank.

 

Looking at things optimistically, we are set offensively with Rios (because we have no choice), Quentin, Ramirez, Dunn, Beckham and Konerko. Viciedo (and possibly Jordan Danks) can take the place of Juan Pierre eventually.

 

That means we merely need to find a catcher and 3B. We have Danks/Buehrle/E. Jackson to trade in order to get there.

 

Of course, if Peavy and Rios DON'T ever return to form, we're absolute screwed for another 2-3 years. Not much of a choice but to have faith that both of them eventually will be fine. Same with Gordon.

 

With a rotation of Peavy, Floyd, Sale, Humber and another young prospect that we get in return for Danks/Buehrle/Jackson, we COULD be okay.

 

The other area where we MIGHT be able to get something in return is trading Thornton, but it would be dangerous to do so since Sale will be in the rotation and we don't have anything close to legitimate proxies for them in our minor league system.

 

And yes, that leaves a rotation with four huge question marks in Peavy, Sale, Humber and mystery "major league ready" pitching prospect. The Royals have been confronting that type of situation with their starting rotation for nearly 15 years and have never adequately filled in their back 3 starters.

Edited May 11, 2011 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mari...?prmid=obinsite

 

Good article on the inner workings of the M's clubhouse and what Bradley did to get released finally...a lot of it had to do with the series against the White Sox, at least the final straw.

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/mari...?prmid=obinsite

Edited May 11, 2011 by caulfield12

[bigruss]

Rebuilt to a fluke division winner in 2000 that was 23 games over .500 in the first half of the season and saw Cleveland close the division lead to 5 games by the end of the season after having 32 different pitchers appear in games. They lost quite a few players to injury in 2001 and ended up finishing .500, but those teams were built almost exclusively on the offense and really didn't have much of a chance to have any sort of sustained success. They had a chance to have a really good team in 2003, but neither 2002 nor 2004 were that good of teams either. That's not much of a rebuild.

 

To rebuild the way people here have and the way I suggested, it's going to take far longer than 3 years. If the Sox try to rebuild with the same organizational philosophy of trading away young, talented players that they "think" will fail or don't "project" well to the majors according to them but keep those guys that they do feel strongly about, they will be left with the same exact situation they're in now.

 

The only team I can think of in the majors that is not the Yankees or Red Sox that has been able to do what the White Sox would be trying to do is the Phillies. They finished in 2nd or 3rd place for like 5 straight seasons, Gillick came on for Ed Wade, and the first move he made was dealing Thome for Rowand, Gonzalez, and Haigwood. They had some dude named Ryan Howard waiting in the wings. On top of that, they had Utley at 2B, Rollins at SS, Burrell in LF, and Abreu in RF - who they traded in 2006 along with Cory Lidle for 4 prospects, none of whom did much of anything in the majors (though Monasterios looks OK for the Dodgers). They still had Brett Myers and Cole Hamels in the rotation too, and a young Madson coming up. There had a good, young core of players to build around, so it didn't take much, and they were STILL selling off.

 

The White Sox don't have an offensive core like that. It's going to take quite a bit more to build something in Chicago.

And how did the Phillies have those players in place even when finishing 2nd or 3rd in the division? By drafting and developing well.

 

Of course the Sox aren't in the position that the Phillies were, but they need to build up to that. It is so crippling to a franchise these days not to have good young players on their team, just look at the Sox. They had to overspend for a good, but not great product because they didn't have enough talent in-house. Now they are stuck with big contracts and some very hard to move expensive players with no young depth behind them.

 

What I don't understand is that the person responsible for this mess, KW, has yet to really address these issues. Instead of convincing JR that he needs to spend $20 mill + on the MLB team, how can he not convince him to spend $3 mill + on a draft to help there. If your current philosophy/staff/scouts/etc on the draft aren't working, then wouldn't it be time to freaking change it/them? Even if guys were healthy (like Mitchell) we would still have one of the worst list of prospects, and they've had 3 drafts to start producing more and so far they have Beckham/Morel/Sale to show for, each struggling mightily and really nothing behind them.

[LittleHurt05]

The only team I can think of in the majors that is not the Yankees or Red Sox that has been able to do what the White Sox would be trying to do is the Phillies. They finished in 2nd or 3rd place for like 5 straight seasons, Gillick came on for Ed Wade, and the first move he made was dealing Thome for Rowand, Gonzalez, and Haigwood. They had some dude named Ryan Howard waiting in the wings. On top of that, they had Utley at 2B, Rollins at SS, Burrell in LF, and Abreu in RF - who they traded in 2006 along with Cory Lidle for 4 prospects, none of whom did much of anything in the majors (though Monasterios looks OK for the Dodgers). They still had Brett Myers and Cole Hamels in the rotation too, and a young Madson coming up. There had a good, young core of players to build around, so it didn't take much, and they were STILL selling off.

 

There's two things the Phills had going for them that really helped:

1. Of course, they drafted and developed several players that became major contributors.

2. They happened to open a brand new ballpark right when they were on the cusp of contending. The new stadium spiked attendance to high levels, which really helped them increase their payroll at the same time, and the rest is history.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Breaking News: the Padres recorded 23 hits in an actual baseball game.

[bigruss]

Breaking News: the Padres recorded 23 hits in an actual baseball game.

Did you mean in a week of baseball games?

[flavum]

Scott Podsednik is a free agent.

[bmags]

so, sorry about the fantasy question, but is it common for points to go thru even if the game was not made official (postponed)?

[witesoxfan]

I haven't seen a player as locked in as Jose Bautista since BLB in 2004.

[smalls2598]

so, sorry about the fantasy question, but is it common for points to go thru even if the game was not made official (postponed)?

The stats shouldn't count; I know they were taken away in both my Yahoo and CBS leagues. I would check your league again this morning; it was probably corrected.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Poor Kendry Morales. He's about to lose basically a second season to one of the more fluke injuries in recent memory.

[LittleHurt05]

Poor Kendry Morales. He's about to lose basically a second season to one of the more fluke injuries in recent memory.

 

and he did it celebrating a walk-off homer with all his teammates. I'm sure the Angels were ready to offer him a nice contract too, now he'll be almost 30 before he's 100% healthy, if he can even repeat the same success.

[caulfield12]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/m...-the-race-card/

 

 

Interesting article on Milton Bradley and the "race card" issue with a quote from KW prominent in the story.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Think it's safe to say Josh Beckett is back.