southsider2k5 Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 10:02 AM) How far are you figuring attendance could possibly fall from here? We've had 3 disappointing seasons in a row with a terrible start to the last 2 seasons. Right now we're currently averaging fewer per game than we've seen since 2002. Last year was the worst year for attendance since 2004. If there's a practical bottom, it's probably around 1.9 million, and last year we were at 2.1 million. I am thinking about 1.5 million if we had let Konerko walk away and been forced to eventually trade pitchers as we slid downhill. The process feeds upon itself. With two sub .500 seasons in a row, and no real expectations of improvement, plus the recession, it would have been ugly. We are getting this now while still being considered "in the race" during the pre-season. Can you imagine if we were trotting out the kids can play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 12:06 PM) What is it with you and singling out a week or 10 days of decent production and trying to overshadow what has been horrific production overall? Because the season doesn't stop at April 30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:29 PM) I am thinking about 1.5 million if we had let Konerko walk away and been forced to eventually trade pitchers as we slid downhill. The process feeds upon itself. With two sub .500 seasons in a row, and no real expectations of improvement, plus the recession, it would have been ugly. We are getting this now while still being considered "in the race" during the pre-season. Can you imagine if we were trotting out the kids can play? If we can sustain $125 million+ on the 2.2 million we drew last year, then 1.5 million should sustain at least an $80 million+ salary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 03:31 PM) If we can sustain $125 million+ on the 2.2 million we drew last year, then 1.5 million should sustain at least an $80 million+ salary. Konerko+Buehrle+Danks+AJ+Jackson= right about the $45ish million you are talking about dropping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:32 PM) Konerko+Buehrle+Danks+AJ+Jackson= right about the $45ish million you are talking about dropping. That was pretty much what I understood them to mean when they said "All in". You go "all in" and lose...you're done at the table and you come back another tournament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 03:34 PM) That was pretty much what I understood them to mean when they said "All in". You go "all in" and lose...you're done at the table and you come back another tournament. That isn't the conversation. The conversation was having guys like Allen, Hudson, and Gio around, and not making those corresponding moves, and what would have happened to the team in the in-term as they figured out how to play. Remember Konerko came back because Dunn and AJ were signed. AJ came back because the Sox decided they could win it this year and made a move to sign Dunn first. If we have Allen, Gio, and Hudson learning at the ML level, it isn't much a stretch to figure on many less wins as they would have struggles just like Gordo, Sale, and Morel have had at times. In the couterfactual, you can't change the entire basis without changing the other things that depended on the first steps. If the Sox had lost more games in the recent years, Konerko and AJ wouldn't be here now. Attendance would have dropped, and the Sox would have traded off other parts to compensate for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 If Kong, AJ, and Buehrle all leave in one offseason, the average fan will be very upset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (knightni @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 03:40 PM) If Kong, AJ, and Buehrle all leave in one offseason, the average fan will be very upset. Which is exactly why I felt attendance would have taken a big hit, especially factoring in the bad records from letting all of the kids play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:39 PM) That isn't the conversation. The conversation was having guys like Allen, Hudson, and Gio around, and not making those corresponding moves, and what would have happened to the team in the in-term as they figured out how to play. Remember Konerko came back because Dunn and AJ were signed. AJ came back because the Sox decided they could win it this year and made a move to sign Dunn first. If we have Allen, Gio, and Hudson learning at the ML level, it isn't much a stretch to figure on many less wins as they would have struggles just like Gordo, Sale, and Morel have had at times. In the couterfactual, you can't change the entire basis without changing the other things that depended on the first steps. If the Sox had lost more games in the recent years, Konerko and AJ wouldn't be here now. Attendance would have dropped, and the Sox would have traded off other parts to compensate for that. OTOH...its also not a stretch to think that the fact that the Sox had 4+ cheap starting pitchers would have given them more flexibility to pay a guy like Dunn. Or...even better...the fact that the Sox held onto guys like Gio and Hudson a little longer, until teams saw what they could do at the big league level within just a year of coming up...could have massively increased what the Sox could have gotten for them. And thus...made the roster even more solid. Anyway, throwing Allen in there is sorta poisoning the well here. Hell, Konerko himself thought Dunn was being brought in to play 1b at first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:41 PM) Which is exactly why I felt attendance would have taken a big hit, especially factoring in the bad records from letting all of the kids play. There's also the other side...that a team with a new young guy that you can get excited about is a reason to come to the ballpark sometimes. K.C., Pittsburgh, and Washington are seeing this right now. Carlos was a reason to stay in your chair in 2008 and use the restroom next inning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 03:46 PM) There's also the other side...that a team with a new young guy that you can get excited about is a reason to come to the ballpark sometimes. K.C., Pittsburgh, and Washington are seeing this right now. Carlos was a reason to stay in your chair in 2008 and use the restroom next inning. You do remember what the Sox looked like after the White Flag trade right? Prospects don't matter to the general Sox fan. They don't care about next year if there is a 75 win team on the field. For the Sox the difference between 75 and 85 win expectations are HUGE historically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:59 PM) You do remember what the Sox looked like after the White Flag trade right? Prospects don't matter to the general Sox fan. They don't care about next year if there is a 75 win team on the field. For the Sox the difference between 75 and 85 win expectations are HUGE historically. The White Flag trade is a bad comparison for a number of reasons, I'm sure you know. It was only a few years after the strike, we were 3.5 games out at the time, and the return was mostly relief pitchers and guys who would contribute in 2 years. The Sox were well over .500 at the time, we're facing being well under .500 now. And furthermore...those relief pitchers would up winning the division 2 years later. Yeah, "The Kids can play" itself was a rough year. But come on, we then went on and traded Mike Cameron for this dude from Cincinnati with no position, we sold off matt Karchner for a tall former #1 pick, and however much "The Kids can play" sucked in 1999, it worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 03:59 PM) You do remember what the Sox looked like after the White Flag trade right? Prospects don't matter to the general Sox fan. They don't care about next year if there is a 75 win team on the field. For the Sox the difference between 75 and 85 win expectations are HUGE historically. Exactly, White Sox fans and prospects don't mix well. Beckham is a prospect, but everyone wants instant gratification or they say he's garbage, he'll never be anything. Robin Ventura is loved around here. I wonder what Soxtalk would have thought of him his rookie year. He was pretty brutal. As much as many want to embrace it, if a rebuild ever happens, many clamouring for it now will be miserable. You do need to have something in the minor leagues because guys aren't going to perform or get hurt, but there certainly is no guarantee if you decide to totally rebuild your team that it will not be a very long process and may never get done. Pittsburgh and KC and Baltimore were once crown jewel franchises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Sorry to change the subject.....But, on the other subject of former Sox farmhands, Mike Morse is having a big year for Washinton. Hitting over .300. 13 HR's, playing regularly at first. Morse was a throw in on the Jeremy Reed/Miguel Oliva trade to Mariners where we got Freddy Garcia. Morse turned out to be a much better hitter than Reed, surprising everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:09 PM) The White Flag trade is a bad comparison for a number of reasons, I'm sure you know. It was only a few years after the strike, we were 3.5 games out at the time, and the return was mostly relief pitchers and guys who would contribute in 2 years. The Sox were well over .500 at the time, we're facing being well under .500 now. And furthermore...those relief pitchers would up winning the division 2 years later. Yeah, "The Kids can play" itself was a rough year. But come on, we then went on and traded Mike Cameron for this dude from Cincinnati with no position, we sold off matt Karchner for a tall former #1 pick, and however much "The Kids can play" sucked in 1999, it worked. The trade might be different but the result would be the same. The big names would leave and we would be playing kids in their place. It doesn't matter what happens in years, the team is still going to hemorrhage attendance until they get their, which limits the payroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:35 PM) Exactly, White Sox fans and prospects don't mix well. Beckham is a prospect, but everyone wants instant gratification or they say he's garbage, he'll never be anything. Robin Ventura is loved around here. I wonder what Soxtalk would have thought of him his rookie year. He was pretty brutal. As much as many want to embrace it, if a rebuild ever happens, many clamouring for it now will be miserable. You do need to have something in the minor leagues because guys aren't going to perform or get hurt, but there certainly is no guarantee if you decide to totally rebuild your team that it will not be a very long process and may never get done. Pittsburgh and KC and Baltimore were once crown jewel franchises. Good point on Beckham. The patience for him is pretty much gone, yet he is the type of player we are talking about turning the franchise over to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 06:33 PM) Good point on Beckham. The patience for him is pretty much gone, yet he is the type of player we are talking about turning the franchise over to. Or, for example, guys like Quentin, Ramirez, Danks, and Floyd (who, when we turned the franchise over to them in 2007/2008, had us in the playoffs the next year). Handing the franchise to young guys is not a priori a mistake. It's a mistake if you can't handle them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 05:40 PM) Or, for example, guys like Quentin, Ramirez, Danks, and Floyd (who, when we turned the franchise over to them in 2007/2008, had us in the playoffs the next year). Handing the franchise to young guys is not a priori a mistake. It's a mistake if you can't handle them. You are making my point for me. How many different occasions did we here about what failures those guys were and how we should get someone else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Some writer texted Kenny during the game last night and asked about Viciedo. Kenny responded by saying he's going to give what Ozzie needs. Either Ozzie has more power than Kenny or Kenny needs to stop playing games. Seriously, if the Sox don't make the playoffs this year, both should be fired for playing this stupid ass ego game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba Philips Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 09:23 AM) Some writer texted Kenny during the game last night and asked about Viciedo. Kenny responded by saying he's going to give what Ozzie needs. Either Ozzie has more power than Kenny or Kenny needs to stop playing games. Seriously, if the Sox don't make the playoffs this year, both should be fired for playing this stupid ass ego game. Ozzie thinks he needs pierre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Look at Ozzie's father's day tweets. I have no idea what the hell he is trying to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justBLAZE Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) Edwin Rodriguez done as a Marlins manager. Writers are reporting Marlins want Ozzie long term, but will hire interim and go after him in the offseason. Edited June 19, 2011 by justBLAZE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 11:58 AM) Edwin Rodriguez done as a Marlins manager. Writers are reporting Marlins want Ozzie long term, but will hire interim and go after him in the offseason. YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARD, YESSSSSS YESSSSS. MERCY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 12:58 PM) Edwin Rodriguez done as a Marlins manager. Writers are reporting Marlins want Ozzie long term, but will hire interim and go after him in the offseason. That was fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattZakrowski Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Can we still get LoMo for him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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