Wisconsin Thread

[Cknolls]

Quick. Someone let Procter and Gamble know that one of their largest products, in sales that is, will be in great need in Madison. Word is Repubs will strip out collective bargaining from budget bill and pass as stand alone bill......Wonder if the Dems still hold their word on the health and pension contributions they agreed to earlier in the month.

[Soxbadger]

Wisconsin may go crazy. Walker finally realized he could pass a bill without Democrats if there wasnt spending, the problem is he didnt follow the notice requirements (24 hours) and there still was some changes to spending.

 

Id guess that there is a Madison law professor who is writing a Complaint with a request for a Temporary Restraining Order.

[Rex Kickass]

Oh in Michigan, the governor is getting the GOP dominated legislature to grant him emergency powers to dissolve legitimately elected local government bodies and replace them with his appointee.

[StrangeSox]

I never thought I'd say this, but thank god for Quinn. We'd be right in the thick of this mess if Brady had won.

[lostfan]

You guys have to pay higher taxes but at least your middle class isn't being asphyxiated

[NorthSideSox72]

I could move posts over, but I'm too lazy. This has been discussed in multiple threads, needs its own.

 

WI legislature finds a way around the quorum requirement, strips out all spending and direct monetary language from the bill, passes it in both chambers as just the strip of collective bargaining rights, stand-alone.

 

Protests are increasing in magnitude again. This is very interesting.

 

I have to say, putting aside for the moment the actual policy initiatives in this... I think this whole exercise has been a fantastic show of the US and state political systems at work. I'm really quite proud of all the protestors, not because I agree with them, but because so many people care this much and actually show it. The whole thing is good for the political soul of the country in the long run.

 

[southsider2k5]

If this is something that gets people involved, it is a good thing, no matter what the outcome. I know I spent a day on this stuff in class over what was happening in Indiana. Talked about the issues, looked as the bills as they stand right now, and talked about how it affects the kids in schools.

[NorthSideSox72]

If this is something that gets people involved, it is a good thing, no matter what the outcome. I know I spent a day on this stuff in class over what was happening in Indiana. Talked about the issues, looked as the bills as they stand right now, and talked about how it affects the kids in schools.

I agree.

 

I think now we'll see the courts involved. I'm pretty sure the WI legislature broke some of their own rules here, so this may get sent back. Also, I am not sure the fines on the Senators will stand. Lots of interesting stuff going on.

 

[southsider2k5]

I agree.

 

I think now we'll see the courts involved. I'm pretty sure the WI legislature broke some of their own rules here, so this may get sent back. Also, I am not sure the fines on the Senators will stand. Lots of interesting stuff going on.

 

Yeah it sounds like the end around in Wisconsin had a holding penalty and is getting called back.

 

The cool thing in Indiana is the minority leader is from Michigan City, and is a guy I know pretty well. I am getting the lowdown first hand on the Dems side.

[Balta1701]

Yeah it sounds like the end around in Wisconsin had a holding penalty and is getting called back.

 

The cool thing in Indiana is the minority leader is from Michigan City, and is a guy I know pretty well. I am getting the lowdown first hand on the Dems side.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the maneuver was approved by the courts eventually.

[NorthSideSox72]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the maneuver was approved by the courts eventually.

Well, at the very least, it appears the legislature specifically and clearly broke a rule about 24 hour notification. So I'm guessing it goes back for another vote if contested in the courts.

 

[BigSqwert]

Ezra Klein:

 

Conservatives who thought health-care process was illegitimate but are lauding Walker need to ask themselves some hard questions: http://wapo.st/hk6m7T

[Y2HH]

Well, at the very least, it appears the legislature specifically and clearly broke a rule about 24 hour notification. So I'm guessing it goes back for another vote if contested in the courts.

 

I think this pissing contest will go for a re-vote after it spends some time in the courts...then it will pass. The fact that the republicans did this, and the fact that the democrats "fled" the state shows how f***ed up our political system is, across the board.

 

This is no way to do business in government...then again, I guess it is...once again business as usual.

[StrangeSox]

Ezra Klein:

 

No they don't. They're doing the same thing liberals would be doing if true HCR was passed via "shady" or "underhanded" tactics. Ultimately it's not how a bill was passed but the end results.

 

The Wisconsin dem's were abusing procedural rules here, so there's no room to complain about rep's doing the same. I still think this fight over a particular piece of legislation is qualitatively different than the US Senate obstructionism, though.

[NorthSideSox72]

I think this pissing contest will go for a re-vote after it spends some time in the courts...then it will pass. The fact that the republicans did this, and the fact that the democrats "fled" the state shows how f***ed up our political system is, across the board.

 

This is no way to do business in government...then again, I guess it is...once again business as usual.

I don't think the system is f***ed up at all - I think the PEOPLE in it are f***ed up. In fact, I think we're seeing how the system actually works pretty damn well, and that the interest level of the people is increasing nicely. Its the actual politicians involved that are the problem. I still think this whole episode will end up having a positive effect on the politics in WI in the future.

 

[StrangeSox]

The system is allowing Walker to get a law passed that redefines "public interest" as "whatever Walker wants" so that he can sell state energy assets without bidding for however much he wants. Oh and he just happens to be largely backed by energy conglomerates. It's also allowing him to redefine the Milwaukee voucher system to take money away from poor students and give it to wealthy students.

 

I'd say the system is pretty f***ed if it allows such egregious abuses.

[southsider2k5]

I don't think the system is f***ed up at all - I think the PEOPLE in it are f***ed up. In fact, I think we're seeing how the system actually works pretty damn well, and that the interest level of the people is increasing nicely. Its the actual politicians involved that are the problem. I still think this whole episode will end up having a positive effect on the politics in WI in the future.

 

The best debate we had throughout my Econ classes was if walking out was a legitimate legislative tool or not.

[NorthSideSox72]

The system is allowing Walker to get a law passed that redefines "public interest" as "whatever Walker wants" so that he can sell state energy assets without bidding for however much he wants. Oh and he just happens to be largely backed by energy conglomerates. It's also allowing him to redefine the Milwaukee voucher system to take money away from poor students and give it to wealthy students.

 

I'd say the system is pretty f***ed if it allows such egregious abuses.

That's not the system that's the problem. That's Walker, doing things he pretty much said he'd do. I personally think a lot of his antics are bad too, but he's acting (with the legislature) within the way the system should work. Fortunately, now that the moderates in WI have seen just how extreme he really wants to be, and just how into corporately corrupt he is, he's very likely to get voted out next election.

 

None of the things you mentioned are systemic abuses. They are s***ty policy.

 

[StrangeSox]

Our system allows Walker's smash-and-grab bills to become the law of the land. It allows him to legally f*** over the majority of the state in favor of a select few. Having to wait 4 years to *hopefully* elect someone to fix his disastrous policy isn't exactly a comforting thought for those he's trampling over right now.

 

The system allows for these abuses. That, to me, says there's something wrong with the system. I'm not going to pretend I have the remedy, though.

[NorthSideSox72]

Our system allows Walker's smash-and-grab bills to become the law of the land. It allows him to legally f*** over the majority of the state in favor of a select few. Having to wait 4 years to *hopefully* elect someone to fix his disastrous policy isn't exactly a comforting thought for those he's trampling over right now.

 

The system allows for these abuses. That, to me, says there's something wrong with the system. I'm not going to pretend I have the remedy, though.

They aren't abuses at all. They are legally enacted policy (probably). You are abusing the term abuse here.

 

[southsider2k5]

Our system allows Walker's smash-and-grab bills to become the law of the land. It allows him to legally f*** over the majority of the state in favor of a select few. Having to wait 4 years to *hopefully* elect someone to fix his disastrous policy isn't exactly a comforting thought for those he's trampling over right now.

 

The system allows for these abuses. That, to me, says there's something wrong with the system. I'm not going to pretend I have the remedy, though.

 

Honestly, this sounds exactly like a Republican post during the Heath Care Bill debate.

[Y2HH]

They aren't abuses at all. They are legally enacted policy (probably). You are abusing the term abuse here.

 

I know what you are saying, and I agree...I think his contention is that the system itself is messed up, despite the fact that they're doing nothing illegal.

 

All that said, I agree with you (I believe it was you anyway) that said if the tables were turned and it was a different issue, the Democrats would be pulling the same exact sort of thing.

 

We've seen this for how long in American politics now? Filibusters were used over and over and nobody had a problem with them, but then when the tables were turned, you heard about how filibusters were an abuse of the system, etc...

 

This is the problem with a two party system...which was never the intention of our government.

[LittleHurt05]

Our system allows Walker's smash-and-grab bills to become the law of the land. It allows him to legally f*** over the majority of the state in favor of a select few. Having to wait 4 years to *hopefully* elect someone to fix his disastrous policy isn't exactly a comforting thought for those he's trampling over right now.

 

The system allows for these abuses. That, to me, says there's something wrong with the system. I'm not going to pretend I have the remedy, though.

 

It's law thats being voted on and passed by representatives elected by the people of the state. The way he went about it may be wrong, but at some point the Democrats were gonna have to show up and the law was gonna pass legally.

[NorthSideSox72]

I know what you are saying, and I agree...I think his contention is that the system itself is messed up, despite the fact that they're doing nothing illegal.

 

All that said, I agree with you (I believe it was you anyway) that said if the tables were turned and it was a different issue, the Democrats would be pulling the same exact sort of thing.

 

We've seen this for how long in American politics now? Filibusters were used over and over and nobody had a problem with them, but then when the tables were turned, you heard about how filibusters were an abuse of the system, etc...

 

This is the problem with a two party system...which was never the intention of our government.

Sure, and the not-really-filibusters (virtual filibusters, whatever you want to call them) are something I find really stupid policy, I don't think that rule should exist, and I hope it dies as soon as possible. But, the GOP and the Dems are NOT abusing the system by using it - what they are doing is letting down the American people, and I think the single best way to fix that is for the American people to get more involved, more knowledgeable, and hold their delegates to government more responsible for their actions.

 

I've said repeatedly, there are three big reasons why Congress keeps getting more dysfunctional. One is corporate interests having too much power, another is the current reality that big money wins elections, but the final and by far biggest reason is that the voters are failing miserably at their jobs. Its stunning what a small percentage of people vote, and just as stunning to me what a small percentage of those people actually bother to invest even a little time finding out who they are really voting for.

 

[StrangeSox]

It's law thats being voted on and passed by representatives elected by the people of the state. The way he went about it may be wrong, but at some point the Democrats were gonna have to show up and the law was gonna pass legally.

 

That's my point. I'm not saying anything the Republicans did here was illegal. We have a system that allows transparently terrible legislation that negatively impacts a large number of citizens for the gain of a small handful like this to pass and stand legally.