Wisconsin Thread

[StrangeSox]

Sure, and the not-really-filibusters (virtual filibusters, whatever you want to call them) are something I find really stupid policy, I don't think that rule should exist, and I hope it dies as soon as possible. But, the GOP and the Dems are NOT abusing the system by using it - what they are doing is letting down the American people, and I think the single best way to fix that is for the American people to get more involved, more knowledgeable, and hold their delegates to government more responsible for their actions.

 

I've said repeatedly, there are three big reasons why Congress keeps getting more dysfunctional. One is corporate interests having too much power, another is the current reality that big money wins elections, but the final and by far biggest reason is that the voters are failing miserably at their jobs. Its stunning what a small percentage of people vote, and just as stunning to me what a small percentage of those people actually bother to invest even a little time finding out who they are really voting for.

 

It's hard to find out what you're really voting for when reasons 1 and 2 spend hundreds of millions of dollars to deliberately misinform you.

 

[jasonxctf]

I think this woke a sleeping dog politically, long-term.

 

For years and years, union members were told to be wary of a certain type of Republican who was anti-union. It became like the boy who cried wolf. Nothing ever came of it. So some union members became disengaged or started basing their votes on other issues that they deemed more important. (if they were pro-life, or anti gun-control, etc).

 

I could see the same thing for NRA members. How many years have they been told that Obama, Clinton, etc was going to take away their guns. Years later, nothing happens. Do they do the same thing?

[southsider2k5]

It's hard to find out what you're really voting for when reasons 1 and 2 spend hundreds of millions of dollars to deliberately misinform you.

 

The most interesting thing about pulling up the bills in the State of Indiana was how many lies the unions were telling the teachers here. I caught many things that were just out-right false in the information they were spreading around our school system. I had to show my wife, who is a teacher, the bills themselves to disprove a lot of what the union officials were telling them.

[StrangeSox]

Honestly, this sounds exactly like a Republican post during the Heath Care Bill debate.

Except you'd have to invert who's negatively impacted and who's positively impacted.

[StrangeSox]

The most interesting thing about pulling up the bills in the State of Indiana was how many lies the unions were telling the teachers here. I caught many things that were just out-right false in the information they were spreading around our school system. I had to show my wife, who is a teacher, the bills themselves to disprove a lot of what the union officials were telling them.

 

Sure, it's not a one-way street. Both parties are irreparably corrupted, imo.

[southsider2k5]

Except you'd have to invert who's negatively impacted and who's positively impacted.

 

Yeah, I was trying to infer that.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah, I was trying to infer that.

 

I meant poor & middle class & lower upper class vs. wealthy elite. Glad you agree!

[Jenksismyhero]

Oh, well that's nice.

[StrangeSox]

Seriously, who makes death threats?

[GoSox05]

People who want to assassinate politicans just do it. They don't email warnings ahead of time.

 

 

[Y2HH]

Sure, and the not-really-filibusters (virtual filibusters, whatever you want to call them) are something I find really stupid policy, I don't think that rule should exist, and I hope it dies as soon as possible. But, the GOP and the Dems are NOT abusing the system by using it - what they are doing is letting down the American people, and I think the single best way to fix that is for the American people to get more involved, more knowledgeable, and hold their delegates to government more responsible for their actions.

 

I've said repeatedly, there are three big reasons why Congress keeps getting more dysfunctional. One is corporate interests having too much power, another is the current reality that big money wins elections, but the final and by far biggest reason is that the voters are failing miserably at their jobs. Its stunning what a small percentage of people vote, and just as stunning to me what a small percentage of those people actually bother to invest even a little time finding out who they are really voting for.

 

I think another problem, which goes hand in hand with people voting/not voting, is that politicians are held at zero accountability. The worst that happens to them, if/when they break every promise they made while campaigning (and most do), is they don't get re-elected years later. The fact that they keep their benefits even if that happens is another story altogether, so let's not even get into that. But as it stands, they can openly lie about what they're going to do, get elected, do the exact opposite without having to answer for it until the next election cycle...

 

In any other job...consider the job interview your campaign...if you promise you can do X, get hired and cannot do X, they fire you...not two years later...and not with full benefits...but immediately.

 

If you campaign on X, and don't do X when elected, you should be immediately fired and replaced if you cannot show why. I understand that there are political barriers preventing some from doing what they promised to do, however, there ARE ways to track if they've tried or even bothered at all...

[NorthSideSox72]

I think another problem, which goes hand in hand with people voting/not voting, is that politicians are held at zero accountability. The worst that happens to them, if/when they break every promise they made while campaigning (and most do), is they don't get re-elected years later. The fact that they keep their benefits even if that happens is another story altogether, so let's not even get into that. But as it stands, they can openly lie about what they're going to do, get elected, do the exact opposite without having to answer for it until the next election cycle...

 

In any other job...consider the job interview your campaign...if you promise you can do X, get hired and cannot do X, they fire you...not two years later...and not with full benefits...but immediately.

 

If you campaign on X, and don't do X when elected, you should be immediately fired and replaced if you cannot show why. I understand that there are political barriers preventing some from doing what they promised to do, however, there ARE ways to track if they've tried or even bothered at all...

Actually, some states, including Wisconsin, have Recall provisions for just this purpose. There are currently petitions being filed on a bunch of the GOP state legislators there (and some Dems too), such that they'd have to face an election again this fall.

[hitlesswonder]

No they don't. They're doing the same thing liberals would be doing if true HCR was passed via "shady" or "underhanded" tactics. Ultimately it's not how a bill was passed but the end results.

The Wisconsin dem's were abusing procedural rules here, so there's no room to complain about rep's doing the same.

 

I agree. Walker was forced to do this by the procedural abuses of the Dems. And, more generally, I think the main conservative complaint about HCR is that it is simply unconstitutional...while all Walker may have done is simply not wait the required 24 hours between posting notice and having a meeting...it's a little different.

[StrangeSox]

The dems did do a pretty good job of being able to highlight how these union-busting, anti-worker measures have no financial impact by legal definition.

[hitlesswonder]

The dems did do a pretty good job of being able to highlight how these union-busting, anti-worker measures have no financial impact by legal definition.

 

Is "anti-worker" meant to be sarcastic? Public workers will no longer be forced to contribute dues to a union via automatic payroll deduction. And in the bigger picture, you get lower taxes and more private sector jobs across the state...I think this bill is pro-worker.

[Balta1701]

Actually, some states, including Wisconsin, have Recall provisions for just this purpose. There are currently petitions being filed on a bunch of the GOP state legislators there (and some Dems too), such that they'd have to face an election again this fall.

FWIW, my last experience with a recall election produced some of the worst politics I've ever seen, so I'm hesitant to consider that a reasonable solution even in the Wisconsinan case.

[Balta1701]

Is "anti-worker" meant to be sarcastic? Public workers will no longer be forced to contribute dues to a union via automatic payroll deduction. And in the bigger picture, you get lower taxes and more private sector jobs across the state...I think this bill is pro-worker.

Unless the state's education system or infrastructure deteriorate because those positions pay worse going rates and thus attract progressively lower quality employees.

[StrangeSox]

Is "anti-worker" meant to be sarcastic? Public workers will no longer be forced to contribute dues to a union via automatic payroll deduction. And in the bigger picture, you get lower taxes and more private sector jobs across the state...I think this bill is pro-worker.

 

 

Unless the state's education system or infrastructure deteriorate because those positions pay worse going rates and thus attract progressively lower quality employees.

 

Pretty much what Balta said.

 

Removing collective bargaining rights isn't pro-worker. Lower corporate taxes that funnel wealth from public sector employees to a small number of wealthy corporate owners isn't pro-worker. Gutting public education in favor of vouchers for overwhelmingly religious private schools that show no better results is not pro-worker.

 

[StrangeSox]

Unless the state's education system or infrastructure deteriorate because those positions pay worse going rates and thus attract progressively lower quality employees.

But if we keep cutting workers' pay, we can also cut corporate taxes! Then corporations can come and offer low-wage jobs to maximize profits!

[hitlesswonder]

Removing collective bargaining rights isn't pro-worker. Lower corporate taxes that funnel wealth from public sector employees to a small number of wealthy corporate owners isn't pro-worker. Gutting public education in favor of vouchers for overwhelmingly religious private schools that show no better results is not pro-worker.

 

Most workers in Wisconsin are not public employees but are taxpayers. Public employees do not have a monopoly on the term "worker" -- far from it.

[StrangeSox]

crabs in a bucket

Edited March 10, 2011 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

Most workers in Wisconsin are not public employees but are taxpayers. Public employees do not have a monopoly on the term "worker" -- far from it.

 

Well, most workers in Wisconsin are educated by public employees, for one. Really, though, why should public workers have their rights gutted? So we can pay them less, give them poorer benefits and drive away good public workers?

[southsider2k5]

Well, most workers in Wisconsin are educated by public employees, for one. Really, though, why should public workers have their rights gutted? So we can pay them less, give them poorer benefits and drive away good public workers?

 

But I thought public employees got paid less than their private sector counterparts?

[StrangeSox]

But I thought public employees got paid less than their private sector counterparts?

 

Yes, they do. Why should we pay them less than they get now?

Edited March 10, 2011 by StrangeSox

[southsider2k5]

Yes, they do. Why should we pay them less than they get now?

 

They should be forced to pay for protections that aren't working?