Soxbadger Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Labor unions can do good, labor unions can do bad. But I think people should have the right to form a union and collectively bargain, if they so choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 10, 2011 -> 04:57 PM) They should be forced to pay for protections that aren't working? I need to know when you stopped beating your wife before I can answer that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 QUOTE (hitlesswonder @ Mar 10, 2011 -> 05:41 PM) Most workers in Wisconsin are not public employees but are taxpayers. Public employees do not have a monopoly on the term "worker" -- far from it. Public employees are also taxpayers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Is the Governor of Wisconsin subject to recall? I've heard that there's a grass-roots (read: Democratic) movement a-foot to attempt to do just that to Walker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 10, 2011 -> 04:09 PM) Actually, some states, including Wisconsin, have Recall provisions for just this purpose. There are currently petitions being filed on a bunch of the GOP state legislators there (and some Dems too), such that they'd have to face an election again this fall. Sounds like a lot of red tape to hold someone accountable...I know these recall provisions exist, but they're almost never used, showing how useful they are. And even when they are used, I'd love to see some data on how often they work on removing the person from office... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 QUOTE (knightni @ Mar 10, 2011 -> 06:04 PM) Is the Governor of Wisconsin subject to recall? I've heard that there's a grass-roots (read: Democratic) movement a-foot to attempt to do just that to Walker. Isn't Walker doing exactly what he campaigned he would do? Sounds to me that he'd win a recall vote, if it even happens, because the same people that voted for him last time would vote for him again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 To my knowledge Walker barely spoke about unions, only stating that he would want there to be some health and pension concessions, but he never stated that he would completely take away all bargaining rights. He also received donations from some unions (the unions that donated to him are exempted from these changes.) According to most polls, Walker does not have 50% and there are at least 2 Republican senators who may be recalled. http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/robert...n-union-busting Just so you know the Journal-Sentinel is a Republican leaning publication, as compared to the Madison newspapers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 10, 2011 -> 08:24 PM) To my knowledge Walker barely spoke about unions, only stating that he would want there to be some health and pension concessions, but he never stated that he would completely take away all bargaining rights. He also received donations from some unions (the unions that donated to him are exempted from these changes.) According to most polls, Walker does not have 50% and there are at least 2 Republican senators who may be recalled. http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/robert...n-union-busting Just so you know the Journal-Sentinel is a Republican leaning publication, as compared to the Madison newspapers. Isn't what he's doing is removing collective bargaining from specific public unions? To my understanding, most public unions don't have collective bargaining rights, unless I'm mistaken and reversing that from private unions. I'm personally not a fan of modern unions, ostly due to their political connections, and the way in which politicians use their pension systems as funding or various projects, and then when they can't repay the money, they raise taxes on everyone to repay pension money that I, for one, will never collect a penny of. Anyway, this isn't a diatribe I really want to get into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 He's removing collective bargaining from all of the unions, except the couple that supported his campaign. This is so transparently ideological. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 He never said that he would take away collective bargaining. As for what most have or have not, that is a red herring. The question is, did he run on this platform. The answer is, no. Its not about taxes or funding, if he just wanted the economic parts most reasonable people would understand. But he wants to strip away their ability to collectively bargain, and I dont agree with that. I have no union, I will never be part of a union, but if people want to start one, I dont think its the govts place to take away that ability. I guess Im not a big govt type of guy like Walker, Im an individual rights person. And I believe that we all individually have the right to get together and agree that we are going to negotiate for the better of the whole. I dont believe the govt has the authority to take that away from individuals. If I had to predict, Id say that Walker and Republican's arent long for Wisconsin and possibly may have shifted Wisconsin back to Obama in 2012. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Mar 10, 2011 -> 09:03 PM) He never said that he would take away collective bargaining. As for what most have or have not, that is a red herring. The question is, did he run on this platform. The answer is, no. Its not about taxes or funding, if he just wanted the economic parts most reasonable people would understand. But he wants to strip away their ability to collectively bargain, and I dont agree with that. I have no union, I will never be part of a union, but if people want to start one, I dont think its the govts place to take away that ability. I guess Im not a big govt type of guy like Walker, Im an individual rights person. And I believe that we all individually have the right to get together and agree that we are going to negotiate for the better of the whole. I dont believe the govt has the authority to take that away from individuals. If I had to predict, Id say that Walker and Republican's arent long for Wisconsin and possibly may have shifted Wisconsin back to Obama in 2012. Quite possible, but when it comes to politics, people have short memory spans. IMO, the next presidential election is basically going to be decided by the economic recovery, it's things are going well and unemployment is down, Obama wins regardless of who runs against him, if things somehow reverse and get worse, odds of his reelection will drop. As for the Wisconsin stuff, despite my anti-union stance, I think what's going on is ridiculous, however, that includes the democrats fleeing the state. On both sides of the fence, this is bad politics being carried out by ba politicians. Edited March 11, 2011 by Y2HH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Fleeing to prevent quorum was within the rules, the same as a filibuster. I may or may not like it, but if you are a politician you would be derelict in your duties if you did not use every rule to your advantage. I wish that I could say that if the Democrats didnt leave the state, Walker would have been more reasonable. The problem is, he just doesnt seem to care. The only hope for people who didnt want Walker to do what he was doing, was to prevent him from reaching a quorum and hoping that by showing he cant get away with anything, hed be more reasonable. What else could they do? Just let him pass the bill? They may have given him enough rope to hang himself, Im not sure. As for short memory spans, people may have them, but unions and corporations dont. Supposedly Democratic party in Wisconsin has been raising massive money this week. Its definitely bad politics, because the last thing you ever want to do is piss off your enemy into action. What you want is a complacency, not rage. People show up to vote when they are pissed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 That was the problem. They didn't run from debate. Walker came out right away and said no negotiations. This whole thing came out of nowhere. It wasn't like Obama campaigning on HCR for two years and then having Congress debate it for another year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskyCaucasian Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) I find it amazing that the Governors of WI and FL has had such tin ears, and have been completely running on ideology, rather than the will of the people. In WI, people are turning against the governor because he is being seen as a union buster. He isnt willing to negotiate. The reason everyone has been so made at Obama is because he is actually WILLING to work with the other side and not be locked into some hardcore ideology. In FL, the governor rejected the high-speed rail system using false information and distorted facts, despite everyone else (the local county and city governments) wanting the project. When you read between the lines, he basically said he didnt want "big government" money. Of course he didnt say that directly, but he talked around the point. Edited March 11, 2011 by Athomeboy_2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan562004 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 http://www.abc4.com/media/lib/53/2/a/1/2a1...c9f1b/Story.jpg Friend of mine, he has got a ton of coverage with this pic, was on main page of cnn.com yesterday and he said it was in NY Times and in an L.A. paper as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 QUOTE (Athomeboy_2000 @ Mar 11, 2011 -> 09:29 AM) I find it amazing that the Governors of WI and FL has had such tin ears, and have been completely running on ideology, rather than the will of the people. In WI, people are turning against the governor because he is being seen as a union buster. He isnt willing to negotiate. The reason everyone has been so made at Obama is because he is actually WILLING to work with the other side and not be locked into some hardcore ideology. In FL, the governor rejected the high-speed rail system using false information and distorted facts, despite everyone else (the local county and city governments) wanting the project. When you read between the lines, he basically said he didnt want "big government" money. Of course he didnt say that directly, but he talked around the point. Funny, I don't remember you claiming this when Obama passed the healthcare law despite the will of the people not supporting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskyCaucasian Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Mar 11, 2011 -> 01:18 PM) Funny, I don't remember you claiming this when Obama passed the healthcare law despite the will of the people not supporting it. Actually, the polls showed they did, until the GOP started all the fear mongering of death panels and "grandma's gonna die" And Obama didnt get everything he wanted. Edited March 11, 2011 by Athomeboy_2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 QUOTE (Athomeboy_2000 @ Mar 11, 2011 -> 01:24 PM) Actually, the polls showed they did, until the GOP started all the fear mongering of death panels and "grandma's gonna die" There were plenty of polls that showed it didn't, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Mar 11, 2011 -> 01:18 PM) Funny, I don't remember you claiming this when Obama passed the healthcare law despite the will of the people not supporting it. As I recall, the numbers on that bill were better than 50% in favor before it passed, then dropped to right around 50% around the time it passed. Not sure where its at now. Not great, but not exactly against the will of the people either. What are the numbers like supporting this WI bill? I'd love to see support for the benefit cost increases, and the collective bargaining issue, seperately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 11, 2011 -> 01:27 PM) As I recall, the numbers on that bill were better than 50% in favor before it passed, then dropped to right around 50% around the time it passed. Not sure where its at now. Not great, but not exactly against the will of the people either. What are the numbers like supporting this WI bill? I'd love to see support for the benefit cost increases, and the collective bargaining issue, seperately. +1 in support of Wisconsin bill from me. Then again, I'm a known anti-union guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 11, 2011 -> 01:28 PM) +1 in support of Wisconsin bill from me. Then again, I'm a known anti-union guy. You are also a FIB, not a Cheesehead, so I didn't ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 11, 2011 -> 01:29 PM) You are also a FIB, not a Cheesehead, so I didn't ask. I don't know what an FIB is. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Mar 11, 2011 -> 01:27 PM) As I recall, the numbers on that bill were better than 50% in favor before it passed, then dropped to right around 50% around the time it passed. Not sure where its at now. Not great, but not exactly against the will of the people either. What are the numbers like supporting this WI bill? I'd love to see support for the benefit cost increases, and the collective bargaining issue, seperately. At least in Indiana the bills are all seperate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskyCaucasian Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 11, 2011 -> 01:28 PM) +1 in support of Wisconsin bill from me. Then again, I'm a known anti-union guy. I am going to go all John Kerry on this and say I am both Pro and Anit- Union. I think they are one of the greatest positives for this country in our ability to protect workers, but when they get TOO powerful, they become anti-productive. The unions in WI might be too strong (I dont know all the details on this subject), but basically giving them the middle finger isnt they way it should be done by a governor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Y2HH @ Mar 11, 2011 -> 01:31 PM) I don't know what an FIB is. :/ f***ing Illinois Bastard Edited March 11, 2011 by BigSqwert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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