clyons Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 11:33 AM) I'm not saying there is nothing to it at all, but I just don't buy that a guy like Thornton who has pitched in so many high leverage situations and was a dominant reliever is suddenly struggling because he is pitching in the 9th inning. I am concerned about him for sure but it doesn't have anything to do with his mindset for pitching in the 9th inning. And I'm not saying that its for sure Thornton's problem either, just that its happened to other guys and wouldn't be unprecedented. Baseball is a funny game and "90% half mental". Guys who have made hundreds of thousands of throws to first suddenly one day can't; catchers can suddenly spaz and not make simple throws to the mound (Steve Blass, Steve Sax, Jarrod Salty, etc.). It happens. Edited April 12, 2011 by PlaySumFnJurny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamtheHBOMB Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I wonder if Cooper has ever approached Thornton about learning another pitch. His slider is not a good secondary pitch. I'm not saying that it would solve his current problems (as locating his fastball better would probably do it), but it would be interesting to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 This sure is a telling statistic: • The White Sox have two losses in games during which they led after eight innings. The team finished 76-3 in 2010 when leading after eight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 04:35 PM) So gonads is a key to closing but not coming in in the 7th inning of a run game with the bases loaded? With the way Thornton is pitching right now he would be struggling just as much in the 7th or 8th as in the 9th. He isn't locating his pitches and his velocity is down. If this was my team and I'd witnessed these first ten games... Santos would close, sale would setup, Crain would be my number one righty, Pena would be my long man, Ohman would be my third lefty, and Thornton would be my situational lefty. He needs to be back in the role best suited for him and the LOOGY role is it at this present moment when you factor in his current struggles. I don't like how forgiving and tolerant Ozzie has been in his handling with the pen thus far... Something's gotta give soon - either Thorntons troubles or Ozzies pride. The managerial staff ( Cooper and Kenny included ) made the wrong choice in naming Matt the closer - flat out. If he turns it around ( which I hope he does - I just don't believe it ) I'll let soxtalk nation pick anything they want through a board wide poll to replace my peavy sig. Edited April 12, 2011 by hi8is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 QUOTE (IamtheHBOMB @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 09:52 AM) I wonder if Cooper has ever approached Thornton about learning another pitch. His slider is not a good secondary pitch. I'm not saying that it would solve his current problems (as locating his fastball better would probably do it), but it would be interesting to know. Thornton should've learned to throw an offspeed pitch for strikes years ago. Most people with his lack of a pitching repertoire don't make very good closers (Bob Howy, Kyle Farnsworth, etc.). Mo Rivera is the one notable exception - only so because his cutter is almost unhittable and his command of it is Maddux-like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 QUOTE (hi8is @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 12:33 PM) This sure is a telling statistic: • The White Sox have two losses in games during which they led after eight innings. The team finished 76-3 in 2010 when leading after eight. The White Sox are a .500 team in games during which they trailed after eight innings. What was their record last year when trailing after 8? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 01:28 PM) Thornton should've learned to throw an offspeed pitch for strikes years ago. Most people with his lack of a pitching repertoire don't make very good closers (Bob Howy, Kyle Farnsworth, etc.). Mo Rivera is the one notable exception - only so because his cutter is almost unhittable and his command of it is Maddux-like. Kyle Farnsworth wasn't a very good reliever so it isn't surprising he wasn't a good closer and Howry was nowhere near the pitcher that Thornton is. Let me ask you this, if Thornton was completely unhittable in the 7th and 8th innings with only one pitch why would he suddenly be hittable in the 9th inning just because he is closing? It doesn't make any sense at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 01:36 PM) The White Sox are a .500 team in games during which they trailed after eight innings. What was their record last year when trailing after 8? They were 3-64 for a nice .045 winning percentage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Be Good Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Why don't we just go 'closer by committee' with Sale, Santos, Crain & Pena. Once Thornton gets his act together in the 7th/8th inning or when the Sox are behind, then we can give him another shot. But at this point there's no need to conitnue with him in the 9th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 QUOTE (Be Good @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 08:25 PM) Why don't we just go 'closer by committee' with Sale, Santos, Crain & Pena. Once Thornton gets his act together in the 7th/8th inning or when the Sox are behind, then we can give him another shot. But at this point there's no need to conitnue with him in the 9th. Because there is no point in having a committee if either Sale or Santos can prove to be effective 90+ percent of the time - which I feel is the case here with our two best options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 11:51 AM) Kyle Farnsworth wasn't a very good reliever so it isn't surprising he wasn't a good closer and Howry was nowhere near the pitcher that Thornton is. And Thornton wasn't nearly the pitcher than Farnsworth and Howry were when he was in Seattle. He wasn't even that good in his first year in Chicago. It's only the past three years that he's been dominant. So I can't say that I'm shocked that a guy with his background and who can only throw one pitch for strikes is struggling right now. Let me ask you this, if Thornton was completely unhittable in the 7th and 8th innings with only one pitch why would he suddenly be hittable in the 9th inning just because he is closing? It doesn't make any sense at all. I don't disagree. And yet, he suddenly can't pitch anymore. It could be a mechanical flaw, or it could be that more hitters are watching film of him and are better prepared to face him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I've evolved into the biggest 'pessimist' on the board. And I still can't bring myself to worry about Matt. The velocity is there. Hitters didn't suddenly 'solve' him because it's the 9th inning that he is now pitching in. His defense has betrayed him twice (thanks, Pierre). He'll be fine. He's one of three players I have no worries about this season, Danks and Dunn being the other two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Something better f***ing change soon. This s*** is way out of hand. It's astonishing how bad this bullpen is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedge Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 The closer isn't on our major league roster, that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 I foresee Kenny having to procure bullpen help by the deadline. Uggh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 04:11 PM) I foresee Kenny having to procure bullpen help by the deadline. Uggh... He will probably have to get more than one reliever, at that. I fear Thornton's one trick pony show is over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 (edited) Ok, it's been cute and all, and I guess we're lucky to be 7-5 after 12 games, but Sergio Santos needs to be the closer for the next 150 games. Enough. And I'm almost ready to say Sale needs to go to Birmingham to start 23 games. Edited April 13, 2011 by flavum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (flavum @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 05:21 PM) Ok, it's been cute and all, and I guess we're lucky to be 7-5 after 12 games, but Sergio Santos needs to be the closer for the next 150 games. Enough. And I'm almost ready to say Sale needs to go to Birmingham to start 23 games. Good lord, please send him down to start. He clearly isn't doing anything positive for us in Chicago right now, might as well try to salvage him and try to continue his career path now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Santos should now be the closer by default. Any other decision at this point is just absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedge Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (flavum @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 03:21 PM) Ok, it's been cute and all, and I guess we're lucky to be 7-5 after 12 games, but Sergio Santos needs to be the closer for the next 150 games. Enough. And I'm almost ready to say Sale needs to go to Birmingham to start 23 games. I agree that at this point Santos should get a shot closing, but I don't think there's really much evidence to suggest he'll succeed in the role. There really isn't much to suggest he'll fail, either. He's a total unknown and I don't think that warrants full time promotion for the rest of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 02:16 PM) I fear Thornton's one trick pony show is over. Thornton reminds me of Jon Garland: He can't throw an offspeed pitch for strikes, so he relies heavily on location. When his command isn't there, hitters just sit back, wait for him to get behind in the count, and tee off of his fastball. I don't know what to make of Thornton at this point... other than the fact that he can't be relied upon to hold a lead right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottyDo Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Wedge @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 05:45 PM) I agree that at this point Santos should get a shot closing, but I don't think there's really much evidence to suggest he'll succeed in the role. There really isn't much to suggest he'll fail, either. He's a total unknown and I don't think that warrants full time promotion for the rest of the season. I think what I'm discovering is that there is never any evidence to suggest whether or not someone will succeed until they've actually done it. I mean, you can't have a much better track record than Thornton's, and he's been a miserable flop thus far. I say try out Santos and see if he can get it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 04:37 PM) Good lord, please send him down to start. He clearly isn't doing anything positive for us in Chicago right now, might as well try to salvage him and try to continue his career path now. Haha, yesterday everyone was "SALE YES!!!!" and now he's the worst bullpen arm of all time and should be sent down. This place has an attention span of roughly 20 hours. Quite comical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 04:51 PM) Haha, yesterday everyone was "SALE YES!!!!" and now he's the worst bullpen arm of all time and should be sent down. This place has an attention span of roughly 20 hours. Quite comical So everyone thinks the same way? Based on what I've seen from Sale so far, is that hitters aren't fooled by him as much as they were last year. The long term plan with him is to start. I'd like him to go to the minors the rest of the season to get 130-140 innings, and possibly be ready to go into the rotation next season. It doesn't matter that he had one good outing last night. I want him to learn to be a professional starting pitcher now. We can get by with Ohman and Thornton as long as neither is the closer. Edited April 13, 2011 by flavum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChrisSamsa Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 At this point, any starter who finishes the 8th should get the ball in the 9th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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