witesoxfan Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (knightni @ Mar 14, 2011 -> 09:45 PM) "With three runs allowed in the fifth inning of Monday's 7-6 loss to the Padres at Camelback Ranch, Chris Sale's Cactus League ERA rose to 7.36 over just 7 1/3 innings. And manager Ozzie Guillen wants him to work on his location during his next side session." Sounds like closer material to me. Considering the White Sox ultimate goal for Chris Sale, and what they want him to do this year - ie, get major league hitters out - it would make sense for him to work on his secondary pitches. Taking his ERA over a 7.1 IP sample size is a bit ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I'm just posting info to all those that were dazzled by his season last year. He's still young and inexperienced in the majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (knightni @ Mar 14, 2011 -> 10:08 PM) I'm just posting info to all those that were dazzled by his season last year. He's still young and inexperienced in the majors. He will probably have some struggles but he's got an electric arm. He needs to improve his command a bit before the start of the season, but he has two weeks to do so. He'll be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiddleCoastBias Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Are his stats inflated as a result of the innings pitched? IE what are his stats by the inning (4th compared to 9th) that he pitched? I can't prove it but I feel like I remember Thornton did not do well when he stepped in last year for a week at closer when Bobby had his family issues. It seemed to me like Thornton mentally operated best in the 8th inning; is that the same case with Sale? (Again, this equation can be negated if I can find that Thornton had similar numbers in the 8th and the 9th). This may be the same case with Sale. It's just my perception that some pitchers pitch better in a given situation- be it set up, clean up, or pressure save. See- Bobby Jenks in a no-pressure clean up in a loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (The Baconator @ Mar 14, 2011 -> 10:54 AM) Mark Gonzales MDGonzales 5 minutes ago They are going to start him!?!!? AHHHHHH BUT HE CAN'T START!! HE WAS SO GOOD IN THE 23 INNINGS HE PITCHED OUT OF THE BULLPEN!!!! f*** THE VALUE, I WANT THE INSTANT GRATIFICATION!!!! /sarcasm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiddleCoastBias Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Mar 14, 2011 -> 10:42 PM) They are going to start him!?!!? AHHHHHH BUT HE CAN'T START!! HE WAS SO GOOD IN THE 23 INNINGS HE PITCHED OUT OF THE BULLPEN!!!! f*** THE VALUE, I WANT THE INSTANT GRATIFICATION!!!! /sarcasm Btw, forgot to follow up on that tweet. Gonzalez then tweeted like 10 minutes later that Sale would be pitching middle innings follow E-Jax' start that same day instead of starting (it's a split squad day and Ozzie wants to see him; his scheduled start would have been at the other location). But yeah, point made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (The Baconator @ Mar 14, 2011 -> 11:36 PM) Are his stats inflated as a result of the innings pitched? IE what are his stats by the inning (4th compared to 9th) that he pitched? I can't prove it but I feel like I remember Thornton did not do well when he stepped in last year for a week at closer when Bobby had his family issues. It seemed to me like Thornton mentally operated best in the 8th inning; is that the same case with Sale? (Again, this equation can be negated if I can find that Thornton had similar numbers in the 8th and the 9th). This may be the same case with Sale. It's just my perception that some pitchers pitch better in a given situation- be it set up, clean up, or pressure save. See- Bobby Jenks in a no-pressure clean up in a loss. It's bizarre but you are not alone in this thinking. For whatever reason people have it in their minds that whenever Thornton has stepped into the closer's role in a Sox uniform he has struggled. Well, this could not be further from the truth. Just last year in the final 5 months of the season Matt Thornton had 8 save opportunities that took place in the 8th inning or later (they can take place before the 8th or 9th but these are not the duties of a closer, there was 1 7th inning blown save) here are his numbers from those 8 outings: 9.1 IP 0 R 1 H 2 BB 11 K 0.320 WHIP 10.6 K/9 8sv/8svo Yes, this is incredibly impressive. How about his career numbers in TRUE closer situations (ie: coming into the game with zero outs in the 9th inning with a lead): 6 IP 0 R 0 H 3 BB 9 K .500 WHIP 13.5 K/9 6sv/6svo Even more impressive. When Matt Thornton has been thrust into the role of closer in a White Sox uniform he has not allowed a single f***ing hit. Awesome. I've said this many, many times over the past 2 years: Matt Thornton may or may not be a good closer but there is absolutely NOTHING in the numbers that insists that he'd fail, in fact the opposite is true if you ignore the sample size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (The Baconator @ Mar 14, 2011 -> 10:56 PM) Btw, forgot to follow up on that tweet. Gonzalez then tweeted like 10 minutes later that Sale would be pitching middle innings follow E-Jax' start that same day instead of starting (it's a split squad day and Ozzie wants to see him; his scheduled start would have been at the other location). But yeah, point made. oh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiddleCoastBias Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Mar 14, 2011 -> 10:59 PM) It's bizarre but you are not alone in this thinking. For whatever reason people have it in their minds that whenever Thornton has stepped into the closer's role in a Sox uniform he has struggled. Well, this could not be further from the truth. Just last year in the final 5 months of the season Matt Thornton had 8 save opportunities that took place in the 8th inning or later (they can take place before the 8th or 9th but these are not the duties of a closer, there was 1 7th inning blown save) here are his numbers from those 8 outings: 9.1 IP 0 R 1 H 2 BB 11 K 0.320 WHIP 10.6 K/9 8sv/8svo Yes, this is incredibly impressive. How about his career numbers in TRUE closer situations (ie: coming into the game with zero outs in the 9th inning with a lead): 6 IP 0 R 0 H 3 BB 9 K .500 WHIP 13.5 K/9 6sv/6svo Even more impressive. When Matt Thornton has been thrust into the role of closer in a White Sox uniform he has not allowed a single f***ing hit. Awesome. I've said this many, many times over the past 2 years: Matt Thornton may or may not be a good closer but there is absolutely NOTHING in the numbers that insists that he'd fail, in fact the opposite is true if you ignore the sample size. See that's what I needed- hard facts to refute my 'eye test'. Is that from B-R? Can you do that with Sale as well? I personally love Thornton in the setup role and Sale at closer but a good deal of this opinion has been based on my thought that Thorny is best fit (statistically) in the setup role. While the sample size for success may be low and it not necessarily be a sign of what may ultimately be (Santos' first half), it is encouraging that he has success in that role. And now it looks like the organization is leaning his way anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 I have my concerns about Thornton as the full-time closer due to his reliance upon one pitch (a pretty straight fastball that comes in at about 99 and probably looks like it comes in at 103) and I think if teams game planned for him to be the full-time closer, which they never really did before, he may face a few more struggles. All that being said, I have no problems if and when he is named closer and still think he will be extremely successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (knightni @ Mar 14, 2011 -> 10:45 PM) "With three runs allowed in the fifth inning of Monday's 7-6 loss to the Padres at Camelback Ranch, Chris Sale's Cactus League ERA rose to 7.36 over just 7 1/3 innings. And manager Ozzie Guillen wants him to work on his location during his next side session." Sounds like closer material to me. Really? You're making that kind of statement after 7.1 ST innings??? You're better than that. QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Mar 15, 2011 -> 12:42 AM) They are going to start him!?!!? AHHHHHH BUT HE CAN'T START!! HE WAS SO GOOD IN THE 23 INNINGS HE PITCHED OUT OF THE BULLPEN!!!! f*** THE VALUE, I WANT THE INSTANT GRATIFICATION!!!! /sarcasm Get over it already. Please. We get it and everyone is very aware of your take on this situation by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco72 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 15, 2011 -> 02:23 AM) I have my concerns about Thornton as the full-time closer due to his reliance upon one pitch (a pretty straight fastball that comes in at about 99 and probably looks like it comes in at 103) and I think if teams game planned for him to be the full-time closer, which they never really did before, he may face a few more struggles. All that being said, I have no problems if and when he is named closer and still think he will be extremely successful. While the main point (reliance on a single pitch) may be true, it's not like the league (and especially the AL Central) haven't been able to prepare for him by now. Other than some mental problem pitching the ninth, his history of success as a late inning reliever absolutely points to Thorton's ability to be successful as a closer. A one-pitch pitcher should be just as easy to hit in the 8th as in the 9th. Whether or not you (generic you, not you in particular Wite) believe that someone "earned" the spot or is "owed" the spot, there's no doubt that Thornton has proven to be the best reliever on the Sox and one of the better ones in baseball. As other posters have said, the real debate is where is Thorton's value the highest to the Sox - coming in at the tough spots or 9th inning specialist. My hope is that the other bullpen options prove to be good enough that Thornton can be a shut-down, we-don't-want-to-face-that-guy-in-the-ninth closer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (Disco72 @ Mar 15, 2011 -> 12:08 PM) While the main point (reliance on a single pitch) may be true, it's not like the league (and especially the AL Central) haven't been able to prepare for him by now. Other than some mental problem pitching the ninth, his history of success as a late inning reliever absolutely points to Thorton's ability to be successful as a closer. A one-pitch pitcher should be just as easy to hit in the 8th as in the 9th. Whether or not you (generic you, not you in particular Wite) believe that someone "earned" the spot or is "owed" the spot, there's no doubt that Thornton has proven to be the best reliever on the Sox and one of the better ones in baseball. As other posters have said, the real debate is where is Thorton's value the highest to the Sox - coming in at the tough spots or 9th inning specialist. My hope is that the other bullpen options prove to be good enough that Thornton can be a shut-down, we-don't-want-to-face-that-guy-in-the-ninth closer. Agreed on all accounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 15, 2011 -> 01:13 PM) Agreed on all accounts. Yea he's earned it but I just worry about him closing out games against teams like Detroit, where he'd be facing VMart, Cabrera and Ordonez, guys who love fastballs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Mar 15, 2011 -> 02:31 PM) Yea he's earned it but I just worry about him closing out games against teams like Detroit, where he'd be facing VMart, Cabrera and Ordonez, guys who love fastballs. Against Thorton, Martinez is 5/19 with a .785 OPS, Cabrera is 1/7 (.476) and Ordonez is 0/4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 15, 2011 -> 01:35 PM) Against Thorton, Martinez is 5/19 with a .785 OPS, Cabrera is 1/7 (.476) and Ordonez is 0/4. Alright, if some of the best righties can't touch him then i have no worries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Mar 15, 2011 -> 02:48 PM) Alright, if some of the best righties can't touch him then i have no worries. I think with Matt, the rule probably is that very few guys who face him regularly have regular success. He's hard to pick up from whatever side, so your best bet is to go up there, guess where the fastball will be, and try to hit it if you can pick it up. That means some guys will come up against him a few times and have success (Thome) but if you face him 10+ times, your numbers will start to even out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 15, 2011 -> 01:51 PM) I think with Matt, the rule probably is that very few guys who face him regularly have regular success. He's hard to pick up from whatever side, so your best bet is to go up there, guess where the fastball will be, and try to hit it if you can pick it up. That means some guys will come up against him a few times and have success (Thome) but if you face him 10+ times, your numbers will start to even out. That's exactly it. It's swing hard and pray you connect. Thome is really the only guy I can think of that has connected well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 15, 2011 -> 02:55 PM) That's exactly it. It's swing hard and pray you connect. Thome is really the only guy I can think of that has connected well. There are always a few, I just glanced through the Bat V. Pitcher thing on ESPN. Aaron Rowand is 3/6 off him with a HR. Inge is 2/6, Boesch is 1/4, each of them has a HR. Delmon Young is 3/7, all singles. Sizemore is 5/17 with a HR, Choo is 6/19 with a 2b and a HR. The guys on the Indians are the only ones who seem to genuinely have decent #'s against him (and I do recall he has struggled a few times against cleveland recently). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Barry Rozner is on B&B today. He's still hearing the plan is for Chris Sale to close. Truthfully, I just can't believe it at this point in spring training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Pick one, give him a chance to be successful and don't be afraid to make a switch. This is one of those situations where a manager earns his pay, and where Ozzie hs room to improve. I believe Thorton has the better chance to be successful based on experience, but it would be sweet if Sale worked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 QUOTE (Tex @ Mar 18, 2011 -> 02:40 PM) Pick one, give him a chance to be successful and don't be afraid to make a switch. This is one of those situations where a manager earns his pay, and where Ozzie hs room to improve. I believe Thorton has the better chance to be successful based on experience, but it would be sweet if Sale worked out. May as well. The last two AL ROYs were closers. I have no problem with Sale at least opening as the closer. Thornton has been the best set-up man in baseball. Only Mike Adams is close. Leave him there. But this is Ozzie. Where the obvious is never apparent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Mar 18, 2011 -> 03:43 PM) But this is Ozzie. Where the obvious is never apparent. I wonder if it is just urban legend that Ozzie sucks at managing he bull pen, or truth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 QUOTE (Tex @ Mar 18, 2011 -> 03:12 PM) I wonder if it is just urban legend that Ozzie sucks at managing he bull pen, or truth? Mark Kotsay was our DH last year. The end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Mar 18, 2011 -> 04:14 PM) Mark Kotsay was our DH last year. The end. Mark Kotsay was in our pen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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