From the old guys . . .

[elrockinMT]

Tex,

 

20 plus years of following the team? Try 52 years since I was akid just starting little league baseball with a Nellie Fox glove. But, good post by you

[knightni]

I've been a fan for about 30 years, since I was 8 years old.

 

But, I can see how the young guys can feel upset as well.

 

The Sox have underachieved in a division that they should dominate with their team finances.

[Texsox]

I wrote a long post telling people to lighten up and have fun at the ballpark, I am such a f***ing bastard I am so sorry to encourage you to have fun at the balpark. Milkman, have a f***ing s***ty time at every game you go to!! Is that better?

[Texsox]

Pointing out to people that this is a great time to be a Sox fan is bad?? Telling people to stop and smell the roses is bad?? WTF? If I had said don't plan on too much fun at the ballpark this summer. We don;t have a fifth starter, our closer is unproven as a closer, Konerko is getting older, AJ is getting older. this team could really suck and baseball on the southside is going to suck would that have been condesending? Yeah, we're going to be out of it by June. Don't waste your money buying tickets now for the second half, there will be all kinds of sales if you enjoy watching Ozzie throw out a white towel.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

If you had read my first post, you would have noticed that I said that going to more games doesn't make me a better fan. I was using the argument that someone can be a pessimist and still support the team and be a real fan. Tex (and others) for years have been saying, either in a straight-forward or roundabout way, that being a pessimist makes someone less of a fan. Since being a pessimist is considered by many as being less of a fan, I used the argument that I have acted as a fan at the games much more often than he. It was an equally absurd argument, but I believe it got the point across that someone's fandom can't be questioned by such measures.

Of course I read your first post but you also said this "I'm not saying that makes anyone a better fan, which I DO believe is the theme of this thread" . You obviously think Tex is calling you a lesser fan because of what you call his history of posts doing just that. I don't see it that way but as much as I read Soxtalk I don't really remember who fights with who and why . Maybe that was his intent , maybe not. I just took it to mean being so pessimistic won't help you with much of anything be it fandom, relationships , raising children ,work or life in general.

[iamshack]

Of course I read your first post but you also said this "I'm not saying that makes anyone a better fan, which I DO believe is the theme of this thread" . You obviously think Tex is calling you a lesser fan because of what you call his history of posts doing just that. I don't see it that way but as much as I read Soxtalk I don't really remember who fights with who and why . Maybe that was his intent , maybe not. I just took it to mean being so pessimistic won't help you with much of anything be it fandom, relationships , raising children ,work or life in general.

I am as optimistic as anyone, and I do try and make people look at that side of things a lot, but other people have every right to have a pessimistic attitude if they want. And it's not my right, or Tex's, or anyone's to tell someone else what to think.

 

Where I get confused is why these people that are so pessimistic torture themselves by lamenting about the same things every day in the game threads. It just seems unhealthy to me. But those that do have pointed out that it is a stress reliever to come and vent with others with like-minded opinions, and if that is the case, than I say have at it.

 

I didn't take offense to what Tex posted, but I can see how some might. Everyone has a right to their own viewpoint, and just because you or I don't understand it, those with pessimistic attitudes don't understand our optimistic attitudes either. So let's embrace our diversity here and turn it into some good spirited debate.

[Dick Allen]

Pointing out to people that this is a great time to be a Sox fan is bad?? Telling people to stop and smell the roses is bad?? WTF? If I had said don't plan on too much fun at the ballpark this summer. We don;t have a fifth starter, our closer is unproven as a closer, Konerko is getting older, AJ is getting older. this team could really suck and baseball on the southside is going to suck would that have been condesending? Yeah, we're going to be out of it by June. Don't waste your money buying tickets now for the second half, there will be all kinds of sales if you enjoy watching Ozzie throw out a white towel.

If you love a restaurant, to really enjoy it, do you have to love every option on the menu? To be a huge good fan of a band, do you have to think every song they write or perform is fantastic? Its still possible to critique a team, but still love it and enjoy it. Debate was something the smart kids did in school. Anyone on this board who posts very regularly is a pretty big fan of the team IMO. I really couldn't pick out one poster on this board that roots for White Sox defeat because they are pessimistic about something and want to be correct.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Dick Allen

[BigEdWalsh]

I thought your initial post was great, Tex. It's too bad if it was misunderstood by anyone. I don't think Tex was saying us older guys are smarter or better fans. He's just saying we suffered through some really bad seasons but had fun doing it simply for the love of the game and the love we have for the White Sox.

Me personally, I had some of my best times going to games in 1970 when the Sox won a total of 56 games. I was at numerous games when the attendance was under 2,000. I was at a double-header when the attendance was 672! Suffering through those kind of years have made these recent years all that much sweeter.

I can be negative at times. I'll come right out and say, I don't want Brent Lillibridge making the team. We can all have our favorite players and there will always be those guys that make us a groan a lot. There's a fine line between pissed off and being negative I suppose. I get pissed off each time the Sox lose, even in spring training, but I try not to be negative about the Sox.

Edited March 27, 2011 by BigEdWalsh

[Texsox]

Dick, what I was trying to say is when you go to the restaurant that you like, instead of sitting there talking about all the menu items you don't like, enjoy the ones you do. Don't sit there and say, I wish their steaks were better, you can't get a decent desert here, that waiter was fine today, but next time we are there, I know he's going to suck. He;s been here for ten years and he's getting to old to wait on me. You know they aren't training anyone to take over in the kitchen, if the chef is calls in sick, this place is totally f***ed. Ever notice those chairs over there are terrible, the chairs at the other place down the street are so much better. And they spent all that money on new paintings, they don't have any money to buy new carpet. etc etc etc I mean, if that what you enjoy doing, knock yourself out, but it seems a little crazy to me. Since you might eat at that restaurant five times a week, you are a great customer, but why torture yourself?

[YASNY]

Milkman, I just reread all those things you listed as condescending. Honestly, I didn't get that impression when I read Tex's post. In fact, I thought it was pretty good advice and maybe a little bit of trying to get folks to see things from a different perspective. Now I want to ask you in a non-condescending way, do you think that maybe you might have read that with a predisposed mindset and got a bit defensive? Just asking, not accusing.

[Dick Allen]

Dick, what I was trying to say is when you go to the restaurant that you like, instead of sitting there talking about all the menu items you don't like, enjoy the ones you do. Don't sit there and say, I wish their steaks were better, you can't get a decent desert here, that waiter was fine today, but next time we are there, I know he's going to suck. He;s been here for ten years and he's getting to old to wait on me. You know they aren't training anyone to take over in the kitchen, if the chef is calls in sick, this place is totally f***ed. Ever notice those chairs over there are terrible, the chairs at the other place down the street are so much better. And they spent all that money on new paintings, they don't have any money to buy new carpet. etc etc etc I mean, if that what you enjoy doing, knock yourself out, but it seems a little crazy to me. Since you might eat at that restaurant five times a week, you are a great customer, but why torture yourself?

But isn't that a symptom of higher expectations? Its kind of like being a parent. If your kid has average intellect, if they get all C's you're fine with it. If their IQ is off the charts and they come home with the same grades, they are going to get an earful. People expect the White Sox to win now. That hasn't always been the case. You just accepted they sucked and if they beat a good team or went on a streak for a week or so, it was like winning the WS. That won't do anymore. Its not necessarily bad. I criticize the White Sox a lot myself, and I'm not a newbie Sox fan. I saw Dick Allen and Bill Melton play live. In fact, back in those days, home games started at 8 pm. My bedtime was 7:30. Starting as a six year old, I used to get up early to beat my dad to the paper in the driveway to see how the game went the night before. Back then, I had no expectations really, now I do, but still enjoy going to the games, watching the games, even if I don't care for some of the players or the fact they wear their black uniforms too much. The fact that people expect a lot more out of the White Sox now should be considered a compliment.

[Texsox]

Excellent point Dick. I agree. But there is a difference between expectations of success and expectations of failure. You are stating exactly what I am saying, especially in April, expect the best, expect victory. Don't focus so much on what could go wrong. But again, I know that might souind preachy so if your mindset is to think about all the ways things will go wrong, go for it. If someone wants to expect failure, and there are some posters here that seem to relish in figuring out ways the team suck, I probably wasted my time typing this morning.

[Quin]

As the young one of the board, I feel like I need to throw in some counterpoints.

 

For starters, I was raised to believe the Sox would never win. Since I was little until 2005 it was always "88 years."

 

And of course, this was Sosa's heyday, so being a Sox fan meant you were something of a lone wolf, which is why Waldo was such a damn good mascot. Seriously, team colors and a wolf. Why is he not still the mascot over the giant green nightmare?

 

Plus, sometimes it seems as if the old guard is the one complaining...often there are old posters (who I won't name) that complain about Buehrle as "no Billy pierce" and other such comparisons. I revere the names Pierce, Aparicio, and Fox because they will always be my dads favorite players. That being said, they didn't win a World Series. Came close, but no cigar (Pierce might get a pass since Lopez didn't play him in that series).

 

And also, wasn't it a guy named oldsox that started the Adam Dunn nuclear meltdown thread?

Edited March 27, 2011 by Quinarvy

[YASNY]

As the young one of the board, I feel like I need to throw in some counterpoints.

 

For starters, I was raised to believe the Sox would never win. Since I was little until 2005 it was always "88 years."

 

And of course, this was Sosa's heyday, so being a Sox fan meant you were something of a lone wolf, which is why Waldo was such a damn good mascot. Seriously, team colors and a wolf. Why is he not still the mascot over the giant green nightmare?

 

Plus, sometimes it seems as if the old guard is the one complaining...often there are old posters (who I won't name) that complain about Buehrle as "no Billy pierce" and other such comparisons. I revere the names Pierce, Aparicio, and Fox because they will always be my dads favorite players. That being said, they didn't win a World Series. Came close, but no cigar (Pierce might get a pass since Lopez didn't play him in that series).

 

And also, wasn't it a guy named oldsox that started the Adam Dunn nuclear meltdown thread?

 

Mark Buehrle stands on his own accomplishments. No need to compare hime to Billy Pierce, Gary Peters, Tommy John or anybody else. Mark Buehrle is Mark Buehrle. And that is one helluva a compliment in this old guy's book.

[caulfield12]

Another thing.

 

I think the fact that coming into the last two seasons, there were those obvious needs to address....in 2009 with D.Wise beginning the season in CF and 2010 with no DH, we're conditioned to pick apart the roster in the pre-season looking for flaws that weren't ultimately addressed either adequately or until it was too late in both years.

 

Now you can argue that you should have a FLAWLESS roster b4 the season starts....which will inevitably lead to the argument that no team, not even the Yankees or the Red Sox has that kind of depth. Which will lead to the follow-up debate, many of those big market clubs have much stronger farms systems than we do, so they have the bit and pieces to replace and/or trade during the season while we're handcuffed.

 

Fair enough. It's pretty clear that Viciedo might be our only bargaining chip at the current time to actually add to the current roster during the season, unless Mitchell can regain his form.

 

 

Anyone who went to a game in the 1980's in Old Comiskey remembers how small those crowds could be....and the late 60's/early 70's period was even worse. As a kid, I thought it was cool. You could explore the whole stadium....hang out in the picnic area behind LF and chat with Carlos Martinez or Sammy Sosa or Scott Radinsky. That's why that final year in the old stadium will always be my favorite, even moreso than the 2005 team. In your teens and early twenties, you're more attached to players than you are as an adult. As you get older, it's easier to become more cynical about the business of baseball, steroids, cheating, etc.

Edited March 27, 2011 by caulfield12

[Pants Rowland]

Thanks for the good sentiments in starting this thread, Tex. I have gathered that some of my favorite posters are up there in years and have a great perspective on the game. This afternoon I was talking to a friend who is originally from Italy and the Cubs "curse" came up. I had not even read this thread yet, but basically said the same thing about the amount of world series wins by the Yankees, Cardinals, Red Sox, A's, Dodgers, and one or two others. Everyone else has struggled to stay relevant over the years. It is a tough game and one that will eat you up if you let it. In 2006 I decided I would turn off a game if I started getting angry. It has made me enjoy baseball a lot better. My son said to me the other day "we don't like the Cubs, right?" I responded, "If you like baseball, watch baseball. If not, don't watch it, but the worst thing you can do is waste your time cheering against another team. Just enjoy the game." I don't care how anyone wants to experience the Sox or baseball here, but it seems we would all be a lot better off just appreciating the beauty of being able to watch baseball just about every day for 6 months out of the year.

[witesoxfan]

If everything were even, teams would only get to the World Series once every 15 years (depending on their league, of course), and teams would only win a World Series once every 30 years. It's the same thing throughout all of sports.

 

What frustrates and upsets the Sox fans to which you are referring is the fact that they are continually beaten by the Twins, and then the Twins inevitably get swept in the postseason. Atleast to me, that is my absolute greatest frustration about this team. They can hang with the Twins, but they don't, and then the Twins get to the postseason and s*** the bed. Through mere correlation, the Sox get overlooked and underrated by the rest of the nation. They have had a relatively great team for the past 11 seasons, including 1 World Series victory, but because they can't beat a team that can't beat the Yankees or the A's, people assume the White Sox are a second tier team. They are not.

 

They have the resources to be a playoff team year after year, yet they have only made the playoffs once since 2005 and even that took a great deal of luck (the Twins losing 2 of 3 to Kansas City). I want this team to make the playoffs in back to back years - something they've never done (though they should have in '94). It would be nice to have some vested interest in the playoffs in consecutive years, wouldn't it?

 

Right now, the Twins are the Sox biggest competitors with the Tigers right behind those two. The Indians and Royals, especially the Royals, are collecting talent in any manner possible to build towards a long term run at the division crown. Come 2014, this Sox team may become irrelevant within the AL Central.

 

All I want between now and then is 2 playoff appearances. That may be too much to ask, but I certainly hope not, and I hope they can do it. I also imagine that's what most of the Sox fans you are referring to want as well (give or take). At this point, the Sox have proven they are competitive. We want to see the Sox make the playoffs. I imagine you want that as well.

[iamshack]

If everything were even, teams would only get to the World Series once every 15 years (depending on their league, of course), and teams would only win a World Series once every 30 years. It's the same thing throughout all of sports.

 

What frustrates and upsets the Sox fans to which you are referring is the fact that they are continually beaten by the Twins, and then the Twins inevitably get swept in the postseason. Atleast to me, that is my absolute greatest frustration about this team. They can hang with the Twins, but they don't, and then the Twins get to the postseason and s*** the bed. Through mere correlation, the Sox get overlooked and underrated by the rest of the nation. They have had a relatively great team for the past 11 seasons, including 1 World Series victory, but because they can't beat a team that can't beat the Yankees or the A's, people assume the White Sox are a second tier team. They are not.

 

They have the resources to be a playoff team year after year, yet they have only made the playoffs once since 2005 and even that took a great deal of luck (the Twins losing 2 of 3 to Kansas City). I want this team to make the playoffs in back to back years - something they've never done (though they should have in '94). It would be nice to have some vested interest in the playoffs in consecutive years, wouldn't it?

 

Right now, the Twins are the Sox biggest competitors with the Tigers right behind those two. The Indians and Royals, especially the Royals, are collecting talent in any manner possible to build towards a long term run at the division crown. Come 2014, this Sox team may become irrelevant within the AL Central.

 

All I want between now and then is 2 playoff appearances. That may be too much to ask, but I certainly hope not, and I hope they can do it. I also imagine that's what most of the Sox fans you are referring to want as well (give or take). At this point, the Sox have proven they are competitive. We want to see the Sox make the playoffs. I imagine you want that as well.

I tend to agree. I think we may be reaching the end of one of the "golden ages" of White Sox baseball. I will always underappreciate these seasons in the present, and probably overindulge them in the future, but I suppose that is par for the course.

 

I do know one thing...having KW as our GM is what keeps my appetite sated each and every year, despite the frustrating collapses down the stretch.

 

Let's give ourself another legitimate WS opportunity. That is all I want before we close out this era.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

And being pessimistic doesn't make me any less of a fan.

 

Nope, just really, really annoying. Not singling you out, just those that are over-the-top pessimistic. It was mentioned before on here about how it's easier to be pessimistic about everything so that you can be first to say I-told-you-so! and just laugh off everything you were wrong about because hey, it's your team and you're glad they proved you wrong anyways...

 

Goes both ways.

 

 

Oh yeah, and old people suck...

[Texsox]

^^

Yeah, well when you lose all your teeth

[Milkman delivers]

Milkman, I just reread all those things you listed as condescending. Honestly, I didn't get that impression when I read Tex's post. In fact, I thought it was pretty good advice and maybe a little bit of trying to get folks to see things from a different perspective. Now I want to ask you in a non-condescending way, do you think that maybe you might have read that with a predisposed mindset and got a bit defensive? Just asking, not accusing.

 

I really don't think I did. When I started reading the thread, I thought it was basically just a fluff piece and one that would likely just fade away quickly with little attention paid to it. While reading it, though, I started to come across quite a few things that seemed like fairly obvious jabs.

[Milkman delivers]

Nope, just really, really annoying. Not singling you out, just those that are over-the-top pessimistic. It was mentioned before on here about how it's easier to be pessimistic about everything so that you can be first to say I-told-you-so! and just laugh off everything you were wrong about because hey, it's your team and you're glad they proved you wrong anyways...

 

Goes both ways.

 

 

Oh yeah, and old people suck...

 

I definitely see how it gets annoying (sorry, J4L lol), but I don't believe it's a choice. It's just the way some people are. And I certainly don't believe it's a way for someone to show that they were right.

[elrockinMT]

Let me say this about all that. This is the greatest game ever! On opening day we are the equal of any team and at the end of the season we will see where we are. I think we will win it all! And if we don't- well, then there is always next season.

[oldsox]

Let me say this about all that. This is the greatest game ever! On opening day we are the equal of any team and at the end of the season we will see where we are. I think we will win it all! And if we don't- well, then there is always next season.

 

Sounds like Harry Carey (not a criticism).

[LittleHurt05]

I don't like how this is brought up as an old fan vs. young fan premise. There are old fans who live and die with every game and b**** about every move more than the young people on this site do and they lived through all the same bad Sox teams. Anyone who has been to a small neighborhood bar in Chicago knows that there are old fans way crazier and more intense than anyone on this site.

 

It just has to do with how people choose to enjoy their sports. Some let it control their life and live & die with every game. Some enjoy it for the sport it is and can step away as soon as the game is over. To each their own.

Edited March 27, 2011 by LittleHurt05