Mark Buehrle

[witesoxfan]

How many playoff series' have the almighty Twins and their invincible "farm" won? (I'm assuming everyone here would cry tears of joy if we had the Twins system)

 

Neither team is doing it 100% right, and just as you don't think we're consistent contenders, I don't think the Twins are either. Wining the division then getting demolished in the playoffs every year isn't a contender in my opinion.

 

As a couple writers have said, the Sox are extremely volatile, we'll either be incredible or huge underachievers with nothing in the middle. I'm fine with that strategy as long as they are doing everything possible to fill huge holes (Dunn>Kotsay) and gambling on having a legit WS contender vs building the Twins version of a "contender".

 

Writers' opinions are generally more respected, but a lot of these guys are still relatively clueless when it comes to the game. If you think about it, they have the ability to develop connections within the game itself and yet almost none of them ever end up in any front office capacity whatsoever. Perhaps most of them simply enjoy the writing and don't want to get involved with the game itself, but I tend to doubt that is a universal truth.

 

Personally, I think the Sox are the surest thing in the division, but it's hard to know how high the ceiling really is. I've basically been making my predictions sporadically across the site, but I believe the Sox are about an 88-93 win team as currently constructed. Considering I have the Tigers maxing out at 86 wins and the Twins anywhere from below .500 to 95 wins, I think the Sox have a good shot at winning the division this year. I just generally don't understand how the Sox are anything close to a boom or bust team. If you seriously look at the composition of the team, I can really only think of about 3-5 guys that I only have a general idea of what they are going to do this year, with those 3 being Quentin, Beckham, and Peavy, and the 4th and 5th guys being Morel and Jackson.

 

I think it's very safe to say that, on paper, the White Sox have the fewest question marks throughout their 25-man roster among all the teams in the AL Central.

[Steve9347]

In a 5 team division with everything equal, you should make the playoffs 1 time in 5 years, 2 times in 10 years, and 3 times in 15 years.

 

The White Sox have made the playoffs 3 times in 11 years. Yes, they're behind the Twins in that regard. They're still above average.

I think we can all safely say that KW and Ozzie would either be gone or we'd all hate them by now if 2005 hadn't wound up the way it did. However, it did, thankfully, and it's part of history, and a God damned World Series Championship gives both of them a long leash from this guy.

[jenksycat]

It gets tiring having to constantly fall back on the fact that the Twins never do anything. It reminds me of all of the years where the Sox had no chance, but we kept our hope afloat because the Cubs were also really bad. It's actually kind of sad.

 

No matter how you cut it, we've only made the playoffs twice in ten years. With the payroll we've had in comparison to the competition, plus the greater amount of talent we've seemingly had, it's not very good to only have two appearances.

 

I used the Twins simply because I'm almost certain everyone who panics over our weak farm system salivates over the Twins....and I was pointing out that their incredible farm system hasn't done s***.

 

Would you trade the Twins 6 division wins over 2 division wins and championship the last 10 years? I wouldn't, and no matter how you cut the KW era, they still have a title from a team that was built with the same philosophy as the current one (a few home grown, a few trades, a few FA signings).

[Milkman delivers]

In a 5 team division with everything equal, you should make the playoffs 1 time in 5 years, 2 times in 10 years, and 3 times in 15 years.

 

The White Sox have made the playoffs 3 times in 11 years. Yes, they're behind the Twins in that regard. They're still above average.

 

That's being generous since, at any point in the last ten years, 2 of the 3 worst teams in the AL were in the Central.

[Milkman delivers]

I used the Twins simply because I'm almost certain everyone who panics over our weak farm system salivates over the Twins....and I was pointing out that their incredible farm system hasn't done s***.

 

Would you trade the Twins 6 division wins over 2 division wins and championship the last 10 years? I wouldn't, and no matter how you cut the KW era, they still have a title from a team that was built with the same philosophy as the current one (a few home grown, a few trades, a few FA signings).

 

No, I obviously wouldn't trade anything for the World Series. The problem is that we don't have to be one way or the other. We can have a good farm system and compete as we do. Thankfully, they've been turning this around in the last few years with the draft. They need to continue drafting well, but they also need to get a better foothold in the Latin market.

[Rowand44]

In a 5 team division with everything equal, you should make the playoffs 1 time in 5 years, 2 times in 10 years, and 3 times in 15 years.

 

The White Sox have made the playoffs 3 times in 11 years. Yes, they're behind the Twins in that regard. They're still above average.

Well everything isn't equal, therein lies the problem with some people.

[bigruss]

How many playoff series' have the almighty Twins and their invincible "farm" won? (I'm assuming everyone here would cry tears of joy if we had the Twins system)

 

Neither team is doing it 100% right, and just as you don't think we're consistent contenders, I don't think the Twins are either. Wining the division then getting demolished in the playoffs every year isn't a contender in my opinion.

 

As a couple writers have said, the Sox are extremely volatile, we'll either be incredible or huge underachievers with nothing in the middle. I'm fine with that strategy as long as they are doing everything possible to fill huge holes (Dunn>Kotsay) and gambling on having a legit WS contender vs building the Twins version of a "contender".

I never brought up the Twins, and honestly I do appreciate part of their ways, but they are flawed too.

 

It's all about combining the best methods in drafting, scouting, development, trades, FA, that lead to consistent contenders. If you can't understand that this puts the organization in a better place to compete every year, and not just for a division but for a WS, than Im sorry, I have nothing else to say.

[bigruss]

Wait, you mean the Sox' regular season winning % in comparison to the 80's doesn't tickle your fancy? It's all about October. Not World Series titles. But consistently putting yourself in position to capture said titles. And you actually gave KW credit for one division title he played no part in (2000). KW is 2/10.

 

Haha yea I wasn't paying too close attention to the years KW was in charge, I was pretty drunk when I posted that.

In a 5 team division with everything equal, you should make the playoffs 1 time in 5 years, 2 times in 10 years, and 3 times in 15 years.

 

The White Sox have made the playoffs 3 times in 11 years. Yes, they're behind the Twins in that regard. They're still above average.

But it's not all equal, and you should know this Balta, you're much better than that. Given the resources the Sox have, and the lack of success that the Royals and Indians have had, the Sox should be in the playoffs much more often.

[bigruss]

I used the Twins simply because I'm almost certain everyone who panics over our weak farm system salivates over the Twins....and I was pointing out that their incredible farm system hasn't done s***.

 

Would you trade the Twins 6 division wins over 2 division wins and championship the last 10 years? I wouldn't, and no matter how you cut the KW era, they still have a title from a team that was built with the same philosophy as the current one (a few home grown, a few trades, a few FA signings).

You assumed that's who I was looking for the Sox to be like, and although I would love to have the success that they get out of their homegrown players, they are restricted by a cheap owner and tend to be hesitant when making trades. They've also done some incredibly stupid moves in the past, imo, such as signing bad veteran players and hoping for large contributions from them, and holding onto them for too long after it was clearly evident that they were still bad.

[southsider2k5]

No, I obviously wouldn't trade anything for the World Series. The problem is that we don't have to be one way or the other. We can have a good farm system and compete as we do. Thankfully, they've been turning this around in the last few years with the draft. They need to continue drafting well, but they also need to get a better foothold in the Latin market.

 

The method that everyone keep throwing out there is spending over slot on draft. Even if you got past the big thing that JR will never go against Seligs edicts on slot, the problem is that any money spent on the draft has to come from somewhere. Would you have been OK with the Sox not signing Jesse Crain this year and putting it into the draft? Or the Sox signed a lesser hitter than Adam Dunn and using the savings in the draft? Or if the Sox let AJ walk away and went with Castro and Flowers behind the plate?

 

That is the reality of what is being proposed here. These things don't have a vaccuum. If you want more spending on draft picks, it means less money for the major league team's budget.

[bigruss]

The method that everyone keep throwing out there is spending over slot on draft. Even if you got past the big thing that JR will never go against Seligs edicts on slot, the problem is that any money spent on the draft has to come from somewhere. Would you have been OK with the Sox not signing Jesse Crain this year and putting it into the draft? Or the Sox signed a lesser hitter than Adam Dunn and using the savings in the draft? Or if the Sox let AJ walk away and went with Castro and Flowers behind the plate?

 

That is the reality of what is being proposed here. These things don't have a vaccuum. If you want more spending on draft picks, it means less money for the major league team's budget.

We had this same conversation before the Sox upped the payroll, it's obvious that they have the money to do it, they just don't want to (stubbornness, or whatever). I look at it this way, if the Sox didn't have to spend so much more on FAs because they had some young studs to play or trade than they would have more to invest in the draft. It's a cycle that begins by investing in the draft, then saving you money by trading for good players with reasonable contracts or filling holes with good young players.

[southsider2k5]

We had this same conversation before the Sox upped the payroll, it's obvious that they have the money to do it, they just don't want to (stubbornness, or whatever). I look at it this way, if the Sox didn't have to spend so much more on FAs because they had some young studs to play or trade than they would have more to invest in the draft. It's a cycle that begins by investing in the draft, then saving you money by trading for good players with reasonable contracts or filling holes with good young players.

 

Except when it actually comes to spending, people have to be willing to wait the extra 3 to 5 years for the investment to payoff. Listening to the people complaining about the lack of a 6th starter right now, and why we didn't sign one, I can only imagine the complaining that would have been going on here without another major league arm in the pen, or major league catcher behind the plate etc. The cycle begins with major league funds being diverted to the draft. You can't just create monopoly money to make all of your wishes come true. It doesn't work that way.

[bigruss]

Except when it actually comes to spending, people have to be willing to wait the extra 3 to 5 years for the investment to payoff. Listening to the people complaining about the lack of a 6th starter right now, and why we didn't sign one, I can only imagine the complaining that would have been going on here without another major league arm in the pen, or major league catcher behind the plate etc. The cycle begins with major league funds being diverted to the draft. You can't just create monopoly money to make all of your wishes come true. It doesn't work that way.

If the Sox had done this earlier it wouldn't be a problem now, just like in 5 years if they don't change they will still have the same problems. It's something that needs to be addressed now, it won't go away.

 

And there is a balance that can be found, the Sox added what, $20 mill to the payroll? If they signed a DLee for the $5 million less than Konerko than you have your draft money right there, while still keeping the team very competitive for the division.

[ScottyDo]

If the Sox had done this earlier it wouldn't be a problem now, just like in 5 years if they don't change they will still have the same problems. It's something that needs to be addressed now, it won't go away.

 

And there is a balance that can be found, the Sox added what, $20 mill to the payroll? If they signed a DLee for the $5 million less than Konerko than you have your draft money right there, while still keeping the team very competitive for the division.

Seriously, are you just flat ignoring the last three years?

[oldsox]

That is the reality of what is being proposed here. These things don't have a vaccuum. If you want more spending on draft picks, it means less money for the major league team's budget.

 

Even though it's not my money Kenny is spending, I still gag when he opens up the vault for Peavy when he could have kept Richard, or when he unloads Hudson for a more expensive Pena. Those are two low priced winners we gave away for big time salaries, and then you can throw Gio into the mix. KW makes it very easy for second guessers. On top of those economic disasters, he spent $56 mm for Dunn, that could have financed a whole bunch of draft picks.

[southsider2k5]

If the Sox had done this earlier it wouldn't be a problem now, just like in 5 years if they don't change they will still have the same problems. It's something that needs to be addressed now, it won't go away.

 

And there is a balance that can be found, the Sox added what, $20 mill to the payroll? If they signed a DLee for the $5 million less than Konerko than you have your draft money right there, while still keeping the team very competitive for the division.

 

Great. The problem is this board would have melted down if we had done it with the express purpose of spending it in the draft instead.

[YASNY]

That is the reality of what is being proposed here. These things don't have a vaccuum. If you want more spending on draft picks, it means less money for the major league team's budget.

 

 

Even though it's not my money Kenny is spending, I still gag when he opens up the vault for Peavy when he could have kept Richard, or when he unloads Hudson for a more expensive Pena. Those are two low priced winners we gave away for big time salaries, and then you can throw Gio into the mix. KW makes it very easy for second guessers. On top of those economic disasters, he spent $56 mm for Dunn, that could have financed a whole bunch of draft picks.

 

Are you trying to me that you hated the Peavy and Swisher (from the A's) trades when they were made? If you did, and can prove it, then fine. But a vast majority of Sox fans liked those trades at the time.

[YASNY]

Great. The problem is this board would have melted down if we had done it with the express purpose of spending it in the draft instead.

 

And I would have been leading the meltdown.

[bigruss]

Great. The problem is this board would have melted down if we had done it with the express purpose of spending it in the draft instead.

All they have to say is that part of the ¨All in¨strategy is to invest more in the future too, because everyone wants the Sox to not only have one good hand, but every year they want to compete. It would be really easy to market it.

 

And there are many cases to be made that Dlee could be as good if not better than Konerko this year.

[bigruss]

Seriously, are you just flat ignoring the last three years?

 

Nope, I already claimed they´ve done a better job, I just don´t think it´s to the point where they need to be to be consistently strong with prospects.

 

Even though it's not my money Kenny is spending, I still gag when he opens up the vault for Peavy when he could have kept Richard, or when he unloads Hudson for a more expensive Pena. Those are two low priced winners we gave away for big time salaries, and then you can throw Gio into the mix. KW makes it very easy for second guessers. On top of those economic disasters, he spent $56 mm for Dunn, that could have financed a whole bunch of draft picks.

 

Although I do disagree with some of the moves that KW has made, dissing the Dunn signing is a pretty poor example, if anything it is one of KW´s best moves in FA. Dunn is as consistently good as they come, and will be a huge impact for this team.

 

The moves that the Sox need to avoid are like the Teahen extension, trading Hudson when he was your only young MLB ready impact starter, etc. The Teahen money could easily be the difference in the draft to sign a few extra overslot guys, and the Hudson trade hurts so much because the Sox now have so much invested in the starting rotation with very little help on the way to help compensate for the eventual contracts given to the upcoming FAs we have.

[bigruss]

And I would have been leading the meltdown.

Im sorry, but this is ridiculous.

 

Prospects are essentially currency, you can invest them into your MLB team or you can trade them for pieces for your MLB team. When you don´t have enough to invest in your MLB team, or to trade for the impact players you need, then your team will falter.

 

Of course a farm system that wins a ton of games means nothing to the MLB team´s record, but it´s about having the ability to fill in for injured players, players leaving for FA, and to trade those pieces for impact players that can be the difference between 2nd place and a division title, or maybe even farther.

 

Just look how valuable prospects have become, there have been so many recent trades for good, young, cost controlled players for prospects, many of which will never pan out. But guess what, you still need those prospects to get those players.

[LittleHurt05]

And I would have been leading the meltdown.

 

I would have been on the front line with you

[Rowand44]

Are you trying to me that you hated the Peavy and Swisher (from the A's) trades when they were made? If you did, and can prove it, then fine. But a vast majority of Sox fans liked those trades at the time.

The Peavy trade was still genius, even though we've barely had Jake so far. Clayton would be at best a 5th starter for the Sox, and I mean at best. Everyone else in that trade was garbage.

[bigruss]

I was on the fence with the Peavy trade, I didn´t mind what we gave up for him, but at the same time the amount of salary he had left was just so large that it made me very wary of acquiring him, especially when he hadn´t shown to be the most durable pitcher in the past.

 

The Swisher trade I hated because I liked Gio, and thought De Los Santos was going to be worth more in a year or two, didn´t really care about losing Sweeney. I also didn´t like acquiring a corner OF/1b and putting him in CF.

[YASNY]

Im sorry, but this is ridiculous.

 

Prospects are essentially currency, you can invest them into your MLB team or you can trade them for pieces for your MLB team. When you don´t have enough to invest in your MLB team, or to trade for the impact players you need, then your team will falter.

 

Of course a farm system that wins a ton of games means nothing to the MLB team´s record, but it´s about having the ability to fill in for injured players, players leaving for FA, and to trade those pieces for impact players that can be the difference between 2nd place and a division title, or maybe even farther.

 

Just look how valuable prospects have become, there have been so many recent trades for good, young, cost controlled players for prospects, many of which will never pan out. But guess what, you still need those prospects to get those players.

 

You have made some very solid points in this thread. But, what I was thinking was nothing more than if the Sox spent money on suspect prospects rather than proven major leaguers then they had their priorities out of whack.