Balta1701 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (SoxAce @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 06:13 PM) What made him great was his outstanding intellect in pitch recognition and tendency to "guess right." Steroids don't enhance that. There are plenty of reports that they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 06:03 PM) Ok ok ok. Can we just bump any thread dealing with any player (let's go A-Rod) and not have this conversation again!!!! Give me some credit for consistency here Steve... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 05:18 PM) Give me some credit for consistency here Steve... Oh of course. I'm calling it from both sides is all I'm saying. We've all had this conversation a thousand times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 04:48 PM) I dunno, I think it's a stretch to say that 'roids will move you from AAA to first-ballot HOF. The thing is we have no idea when he started. It could have been all along, it could have just been at the end when he went down hill. Now it brings everything into question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 04:58 PM) This is all I have to say in reply. That doesn't say anything. If Giambi was on the Olympic teams, it means he was one of the top amateurs in the world. It is also is the one time we are reasonably sure he wasn't on anything and we can use that as a baseline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 05:28 PM) Oh of course. I'm calling it from both sides is all I'm saying. We've all had this conversation a thousand times. Bonds is actually a great argument. He was a HOFer before he took anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 07:26 PM) The thing is we have no idea when he started. It could have been all along, it could have just been at the end when he went down hill. Now it brings everything into question. I understand that, but I could take all the roids in the world and still not make it even to AA level. They can augment talent, but they're not a replacement for it. Even if he's roiding since HS, he still has a bunch of natural talent behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigHurt Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) He might have been remembered as "AAA ballplayer #2740865" if it weren't for the juice. You must have an agenda to say something that silly. I do believe a lot of leaked names from that report we saw a while back never even became that great. Ramirez was still an amazing hitter, as was Bonds. Your suggestion surprises me coming from someone who usually seems like a pretty knowledgeable guy. Steroids or no steroids you need to have some talent to really make it like Manny, Bonds, A-Rod, etc. have. Interesting article: http://www.csnchicago.com/04/08/11/Manny-d...&feedID=661 From Jenks: "You do it, you get caught, you’re an idiot. If you do it again you’re a dumbass,” said Jenks. “I mean, it’s sad to see. One of the greatest hitters, or one of them, to make the same mistake twice, same bad choice." lol. Edited April 9, 2011 by TheBigHurt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 QUOTE (TheBigHurt @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 07:36 PM) You must have an agenda to say something that silly. I do believe a lot of leaked names from that report we saw a while back never even became that great. Ramirez was still an amazing hitter, as was Bonds. Your suggestion surprises me coming from someone who usually seems like a pretty knowledgeable guy. Steroids or no steroids you need to have some talent to really make it like Manny, Bonds, A-Rod, etc. have. Interesting article: http://www.csnchicago.com/04/08/11/Manny-d...&feedID=661 From Jenks: lol. Sez the guy who got ran out of the Anaheim system for being a drunk... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBigHurt Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Sez the guy who got ran out of the Anaheim system for being a drunk... Technically what he is saying is (bluntly) true. But I guess you gotta consider the source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 04:58 PM) This is all I have to say in reply. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 07:27 PM) That doesn't say anything. If Giambi was on the Olympic teams, it means he was one of the top amateurs in the world. It is also is the one time we are reasonably sure he wasn't on anything and we can use that as a baseline. Seriously. That is a Topps 91, which means that photo was likely taken in 1990. He didn't make it to the Majors until 1995. I understand that Giambi used and has admitted as much, but to suggest that he got that big from steroids is fatuous. He was 19 years old in 1990; if he's a big, hulking monster at that age, then I'd be more scared. You can hit the weights and get that big in 5 years time. If I had to guess as to when Giambi got started, I would say it was probably in the 98 or 99. Just looking at his numbers, he was a 40 2B, 20 HR type guy early in his career, and was similar in 1998. Starting around 1999 and especially 2000, quite a few of those doubles started going over the fence for homers, and his overall numbers began improving. Of course there's no way to know it exactly, but here he is in 1995: Doesn't look like the Incredible Hulk to me He does begin to look bigger in the '96 photos/'97 cards, so perhaps he had started then. I don't think he started using until he got to the majors. I don't think any of us know anything. I genuinely do think he is remorseful for what he did, and I think he's been clean for years, perhaps because he was very legitimately and seriously ill in 2004. Edited April 9, 2011 by witesoxfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 05:17 PM) There are plenty of reports that they do. I've seen improved eye sight, hand-eye coordination, of course more muscle, improved injuries, etc but never about guessing pitches right or having outstanding intellect in pitch recognition. Edited April 9, 2011 by SoxAce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitem0nkey Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 I hope the Rays retire his number. It was quite the run. I saw a headline saying Rays slugger Manny Ramirez retires. Officially, his only hit for the rays was a ground ball, I don't think that qualifies him as a "Rays slugger". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 QUOTE (SoxAce @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 11:05 PM) I've seen improved eye sight, hand-eye coordination, of course more muscle, improved injuries, etc but never about guessing pitches right or having outstanding intellect in pitch recognition. Eyesight has nothing to do with pitch recognition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) Jose Canseco said he, (JC) would have been a minor leaguer if not for the juice. He almost hit 500 homers, and was an MVP. Manny may have been HOF worthy without the juice, but we don't know, and considering he supposedly tested postive in 2003 when they had the initial tests without penalty, he tested positive at least 3 times. He's a cheat and a fraud who couldn't bust his ass on the field when Boston was paying him $20 million a year. Watching him explode when he got to LA, people focused on that and "Mannywood", not the jackass who was well taken care of but jaked his way out of Boston. He then jaked his way out of LA, and was a bust you could see coming for over 2000 miles with the White Sox. Why the Rays would give him $2 million is beyond me, but they are off the hook as the idiot cheated yet again. Instead of facing it like a man, he took the easy way out. Again. You would have to think he's cheated all along. Anything he's ever accomplished in the major leagues is tainted whether some want to admit it or not. Edited April 9, 2011 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 The flaw in the logic of he would never have even made it to the majors is that there have been plenty of people who have taken steroids, got caught, and still were either never good in the majors or never made it.. Steroids aren't a magic drug that turn you into an all star Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (T R U @ Apr 9, 2011 -> 01:20 PM) The flaw in the logic of he would never have even made it to the majors is that there have been plenty of people who have taken steroids, got caught, and still were either never good in the majors or never made it.. Steroids aren't a magic drug that turn you into an all star BS. We will never know if he would have made it to the majors or not. Maybe he was clean for a while. Again, we will never know. What we do know is what Manny was willing to risk to take steroids because of what it could do to his performance. He gambled and lost. Edited April 9, 2011 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 QUOTE (T R U @ Apr 9, 2011 -> 02:20 PM) The flaw in the logic of he would never have even made it to the majors is that there have been plenty of people who have taken steroids, got caught, and still were either never good in the majors or never made it.. Steroids aren't a magic drug that turn you into an all star There are a lot of guys who took steroids and didn't turn into Hall of Famers either. What that means is that different people's bodies react to enormous regimens of hormones in a different way. For some guys, it certainly can be a magic drug that takes you from being a minor leaguers, shrinks your balls, cuts 30 years off your life, but puts you in the AS game and makes you a $300 million career. For other guys, it can be a drug that they take for a few months and suddenly wind up depressed and killing themselves. Literally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyho7476 Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 QUOTE (SoxAce @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 10:05 PM) I've seen improved eye sight, hand-eye coordination, of course more muscle, improved injuries, etc but never about guessing pitches right or having outstanding intellect in pitch recognition. But doesn't improved eye sight help with pitch recognition? Reading Canseco's book opened my eyes as to how much steroids help a person. You certainly need talent, but roids can take you to a whole new level. All these guys numbers don't really mean much anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Apr 8, 2011 -> 03:28 PM) Oh of course. I'm calling it from both sides is all I'm saying. We've all had this conversation a thousand times. Serena Williams ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 QUOTE (tonyho7476 @ Apr 11, 2011 -> 11:46 AM) But doesn't improved eye sight help with pitch recognition? Reading Canseco's book opened my eyes as to how much steroids help a person. You certainly need talent, but roids can take you to a whole new level. All these guys numbers don't really mean much anymore. Canseco's writing from personal opinion, which is hugely subjective and vulnerable to placebo effect. There's a reason why medical trials are run double-blind and don't just rely on how a patient feels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 11:31 AM) Canseco's writing from personal opinion, which is hugely subjective and vulnerable to placebo effect. There's a reason why medical trials are run double-blind and don't just rely on how a patient feels. Besides Canseco is a greedy and egotistical prick. No one would have talked about his book if he had sad it only added 0.010 to his slugger percentage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 12:50 PM) Besides Canseco is a greedy and egotistical prick. No one would have talked about his book if he had sad it only added 0.010 to his slugger percentage. No one would be still talking about his book if he wasn't ~ 9/9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 01:22 PM) No one would be still talking about his book if he wasn't ~ 9/9. That doesn't say anything about the reliability of his perception of the effects of steroid use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 02:56 PM) That doesn't say anything about the reliability of his perception of the effects of steroid use. Honestly? It kinda does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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