Government Shutdown on the clock thread

[Soxbadger]

I'll be the first to say we need to do something to lessen the American economic dependency on government, but this is not the way. This is just silly grandstanding.

 

I wish that I could write it off as "silly". This is purposefully destructive and I wont forget. Maybe Im just 1 vote, maybe Im a small nobody, but I wont forget.

[bmags]

This isn't even as bad as the debt ceiling fight in 2 weeks.

[NorthSideSox72]

Leaving aside the obvious here - like the fact that this is pure idociy, etc. - from a political point of view, this is the GOP commiting Hari Kari. The schism keeps getting wider within that party.

 

But what is really stunning about it to me, is that the Tea Party crowd is actually just a couple dozen house reps and a few Senators. And all the data tells us their influence is waning. Yet the GOP establishment still continues to cave to them.

 

This whole thing where the GOP feels that you have to stay hyper-conservative in order to survive primaries is a mostly unfounded paranoia. The fear is not placed in much reality. And as they keep going down this "No I'M More Conservative!!!" route, they are continuing to marginalize themselves as a party. They continue to kowtow to a minority of their own party, continue to refuse any attempt at working across the aisle, and continue to find more and more extreme politicians for office. This cannot end well.

 

They either become a regional party with no real power, or they change course to become a little more moderate and reasonable, or they split in two. Anyone want to guess which will happen? I honestly don't know.

 

The whole thing is sad to me. I've always been an independent, but I voted GOP more than Dem until a few years ago.

 

 

[bmags]

Leaving aside the obvious here - like the fact that this is pure idociy, etc. - from a political point of view, this is the GOP commiting Hari Kari. The schism keeps getting wider within that party.

 

But what is really stunning about it to me, is that the Tea Party crowd is actually just a couple dozen house reps and a few Senators. And all the data tells us their influence is waning. Yet the GOP establishment still continues to cave to them.

 

This whole thing where the GOP feels that you have to stay hyper-conservative in order to survive primaries is a mostly unfounded paranoia. The fear is not placed in much reality. And as they keep going down this "No I'M More Conservative!!!" route, they are continuing to marginalize themselves as a party. They continue to kowtow to a minority of their own party, continue to refuse any attempt at working across the aisle, and continue to find more and more extreme politicians for office. This cannot end well.

 

They either become a regional party with no real power, or they change course to become a little more moderate and reasonable, or they split in two. Anyone want to guess which will happen? I honestly don't know.

 

The whole thing is sad to me. I've always been an independent, but I voted GOP more than Dem until a few years ago.

 

Maybe not in national primaries, but Dick Lugar going down and McConnell's polling seems to indicate they are rational here. They need to perform these crazy destructive acts just to prove how much they hate socialism/Obama/democrats because if you work with em you work for em!

[Jenksismyhero]

Leaving aside the obvious here - like the fact that this is pure idociy, etc. - from a political point of view, this is the GOP commiting Hari Kari. The schism keeps getting wider within that party.

 

But what is really stunning about it to me, is that the Tea Party crowd is actually just a couple dozen house reps and a few Senators. And all the data tells us their influence is waning. Yet the GOP establishment still continues to cave to them.

 

This whole thing where the GOP feels that you have to stay hyper-conservative in order to survive primaries is a mostly unfounded paranoia. The fear is not placed in much reality. And as they keep going down this "No I'M More Conservative!!!" route, they are continuing to marginalize themselves as a party. They continue to kowtow to a minority of their own party, continue to refuse any attempt at working across the aisle, and continue to find more and more extreme politicians for office. This cannot end well.

 

They either become a regional party with no real power, or they change course to become a little more moderate and reasonable, or they split in two. Anyone want to guess which will happen? I honestly don't know.

 

The whole thing is sad to me. I've always been an independent, but I voted GOP more than Dem until a few years ago.

 

Agree with everything you say here.

 

What kills me about this latest move is that it makes no sense. They've lost. The law is in effect. The cat is out of the bag. So why shut down the government over it? Let the thing fail and win elections later because of it. Do they really think Obama will just close it all down in a week?

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Agree with everything you say here.

 

What kills me about this latest move is that it makes no sense. They've lost. The law is in effect. The cat is out of the bag. So why shut down the government over it? Let the thing fail and win elections later because of it. Do they really think Obama will just close it all down in a week?

 

Because existing government programs get shutdown all of the time... It doesn't matter what the long term effects are, once it is in, it is in for good.

[NorthSideSox72]

Maybe not in national primaries, but Dick Lugar going down and McConnell's polling seems to indicate they are rational here. They need to perform these crazy destructive acts just to prove how much they hate socialism/Obama/democrats because if you work with em you work for em!

Of course there are examples here and there. But the Lugar thing happened a while ago, when the tea party was still peaking in popularity. and McConnell's numbers are about a lot of things, and not being conservative enough is only one. If you read the articles about that race, they are getting on him for all sorts of things. And every district and every state is different of course - that is always the case.

 

As a whole, support for the Tea Party is down a big chunk in the past couple years. And you are seeing some buyers' remorse. I'm not saying they have NO influence - I'm saying their level of actual support nationally doesn't have nearly the power to truly control the GOP with it. It is fear. That just won't last long.

 

Another thing about this that bothers me... the whole Tea Party thing started as asking for smaller government regulation, and was a natural partner to the Libertarian groups. This showed some early hope for them, but then they were quickly co-opted by all manner of conservative groups, and now they are just the WE ARE REALLY REALLY CONSERVATIVE group. Their hard lines on social issues (where, again, nationally, they are in the minority), combined with their severe tactics on the small government stuff (which if they made reasonable change to would actually be popular), are running them quickly off a cliff.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Because existing government programs get shutdown all of the time... It doesn't matter what the long term effects are, once it is in, it is in for good.

 

Those two statements conflict with each other.

 

Edit: I mean, I get why they did what they did, and I agree that once it's implemented, it's never going away. But Obama called their bluff, and now it doesn't matter. The law is in effect. So no matter how long they hold out, it's not going to be stopped. And on top of this, they've already lost the PR battle. That's not going to get better over time.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Jenksismybitch

[Reddy]

Jon Stewart:

 

"Nobody's saying it's a good law, nobody's saying it's a bad law, but it's a law! Are you familiar with how the world works? Did you see the Giants game on Sunday? OK, they lost 31-7. And you know what the Giants didn't say after that game? 'If you don't give us 25 more points by midnight on Monday, we will shut down the f***ing NFL!' They didn't say that!" (wild audience cheering and applause)

 

"What I'm saying is, wouldn't it be nice if the United States Congress aspired to the maturity and problem-solving capacity of football players?" (wild audience cheering and applause)

[southsider2k5]

Those two statements conflict with each other.

 

Edit: I mean, I get why they did what they did, and I agree that once it's implemented, it's never going away. But Obama called their bluff, and now it doesn't matter. The law is in effect. So no matter how long they hold out, it's not going to be stopped. And on top of this, they've already lost the PR battle. That's not going to get better over time.

 

The first part was sarcasm. The second was reality.

[Soxbadger]

Agree with everything you say here.

 

What kills me about this latest move is that it makes no sense. They've lost. The law is in effect. The cat is out of the bag. So why shut down the government over it? Let the thing fail and win elections later because of it. Do they really think Obama will just close it all down in a week?

 

Exactly.

 

At the end of the day big business is not going to let the Republican party be a petulant child that costs them money. Big business may dislike taxes, but I guarantee it will hate a shutdown more.

[greg775]

You know Duke, you can just go f*** yourself right up the ass. I'm getting my furlough letter in about 30 minutes and my family of four is going to be without its sole source of income. I didn't do anything to you or anybody else to deserve this. If you think that there are too many government employees that's fine, but if you think suddenly cutting off the income of a million employees who haven't done anything wrong is fine, then you are a disgusting person.

 

What Duke said was reprehensible. I figure it was some sort of joke. Good luck to you, Hickory. If this furlough lasts too long and you guys need food or anything I'd be willing to contribute to a Soxtalk fund. I think Duke was trolling or kidding. Furloughs bite when families are living check to check. Not saying you are doing that but kids are expensive to raise.

[BigSqwert]

At least the worthless public employees get cut off.

 

Do people understand that the National Parks will still exist? Like they aren't going to turn Mt Rainier into a strip mall.

 

When you get 20 to 30 feet of snow each winter in that area the roads become destroyed in no time. It takes one winter for an area like that that to be completely inaccessible so good luck trying to access places that are completely ignored and not kept up.

 

 

[Reddy]

What Duke said was reprehensible. I figure it was some sort of joke. Good luck to you, Hickory. If this furlough lasts too long and you guys need food or anything I'd be willing to contribute to a Soxtalk fund. I think Duke was trolling or kidding. Furloughs bite when families are living check to check. Not saying you are doing that but kids are expensive to raise.

he's not. those are his real views.

[iamshack]

When you get 20 to 30 feet of snow each winter in that area the roads become destroyed in no time. It takes one winter for an area like that that to be completely inaccessible so good luck trying to access places that are completely ignored and not kept up.

Yeah, it's like that Life After People show on the History Channel a few years ago

[southsider2k5]

Balta, I love it when you mock people for working for a living.

 

 

At least the worthless public employees get cut off.

 

Do people understand that the National Parks will still exist? Like they aren't going to turn Mt Rainier into a strip mall.

 

Just awesome. And 6 minutes apart too.

[Texsox]

When you get 20 to 30 feet of snow each winter in that area the roads become destroyed in no time. It takes one winter for an area like that that to be completely inaccessible so good luck trying to access places that are completely ignored and not kept up.

 

They only pave one road into Yellowstone each winter, the other roads are allowed to snow over.

[Texsox]

I am applauding the members of the house who campaigned on a no surrender, no compromise, we'll get rid of the ACA, and were elected. Now they are following through on the promise. What I haven't seen much of are their supporters standing up and thanking them for holding firm and allowing a shutdown.

 

Also of note, it seems as if the low visibilty old timers in both parties are more willing to compromise. It is the newer members that seem the most eager to take a my way or no way stance.

 

I had some hope in the small government stance that some Tea Party people were taking. I like the balance between both parties and would not want either party to have carte blanch for very long. I dislike that our choice comes to tax and spend versus spend and don't tax. We end up with all the spending and not enough taxing. When I see record profits and no hiring I stop buying into tax breaks for the "job creators".

[Y2HH]

I am applauding the members of the house who campaigned on a no surrender, no compromise, we'll get rid of the ACA, and were elected. Now they are following through on the promise. What I haven't seen much of are their supporters standing up and thanking them for holding firm and allowing a shutdown.

 

Also of note, it seems as if the low visibilty old timers in both parties are more willing to compromise. It is the newer members that seem the most eager to take a my way or no way stance.

 

I had some hope in the small government stance that some Tea Party people were taking. I like the balance between both parties and would not want either party to have carte blanch for very long. I dislike that our choice comes to tax and spend versus spend and don't tax. We end up with all the spending and not enough taxing. When I see record profits and no hiring I stop buying into tax breaks for the "job creators".

 

You are confusing record profits to the Fortune 500 as record profits for all. Yes, a lot of the mega corporations are doing better than ever...but they don't employ the majority of people. Small and medium businesses do, and they're not all doing quite as well as Apple.

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm not going to support Duke here, but I will say that there are far more s***ty public employees than private employees out there that i've encountered in my day to day life. Ultimately that means nothing as a worker can be s***ty regardless of his employer, but having to deal with clerks at the courthouse or the treasurers office or the like is an exercise in patience. And I do it on a near daily basis.

 

That, and i've had my fair share of litigation involving public constructions workers (various City Departments, road construction crews, etc.) being complete morons. "What's that? We're digging up a water main right near a live electric line? Nah f*** it, let's dig!" Add to that the difficulty the government has firing public employees versus private employees, and you get the stereotype that Duke is referring to.

[Reddy]

I am applauding the members of the house who campaigned on a no surrender, no compromise, we'll get rid of the ACA, and were elected. Now they are following through on the promise.

 

I'm sorry, that's asinine.

 

If they'd run on "We'll get rid of ACA at the expense of hundreds of thousands of American jobs" I doubt they'd have gotten elected.

[Y2HH]

I'm not going to support Duke here, but I will say that there are far more s***ty public employees than private employees out there that i've encountered in my day to day life. Ultimately that means nothing as a worker can be s***ty regardless of his employer, but having to deal with clerks at the courthouse or the treasurers office or the like is an exercise in patience. And I do it on a near daily basis.

 

That, and i've had my fair share of litigation involving public constructions workers (various City Departments, road construction crews, etc.) being complete morons. "What's that? We're digging up a water main right near a live electric line? Nah f*** it, let's dig!" Add to that the difficulty the government has firing public employees versus private employees, and you get the stereotype that Duke is referring to.

 

Like when you go to the DMV and it takes an hour to get a new drivers license, when the total amount of "work" that has to be done adds up to about 1 minute and 45 seconds. Of course, because between helping each customer, they wander around for 8 minutes, talk to people, and otherwise just work like they're covered in thick syrup.

 

No, not all public employees are like that...but it's also my experience that many are.

[Soxbadger]

Its almost impossible to really figure out how well a small business is doing. And Im pretty sure that most Democrats would be okay with a tax on "mega corporations".

 

I wonder which side would fight it...

 

The real tragedy here is that this is all fixable.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Soxbadger

[southsider2k5]

You are confusing record profits to the Fortune 500 as record profits for all. Yes, a lot of the mega corporations are doing better than ever...but they don't employ the majority of people. Small and medium businesses do, and they're not all doing quite as well as Apple.

 

And of course the irony is that it is the federal government that is the nations biggest employer.

[Reddy]

Like when you go to the DMV and it takes an hour to get a new drivers license, when the total amount of "work" that has to be done adds up to about 1 minute and 45 seconds. Of course, because between helping each customer, they wander around for 8 minutes, talk to people, and otherwise just work like they're covered in thick syrup.

 

No, not all public employees are like that...but it's also my experience that many are.

 

does that mean they should be unemployed? who will we find to take their place?