Juan Pierre

[fathom]

And it needs to be done sooner than later. Note that Hawkins was returned to the 8th inning spot after leaving the Cubs, and never returned to form...they ruined him mentally, and that's what Thornton looks like right now...mentally defeated. Pierre is a footnote in this...the fact that Thornton hasn't recorded a single easy out, or looked dominating over any hitter thus far is alarming...and it could end up costing us more than just a few games, but the best setup man in the game the last few years running.

 

I still stand by my belief that last year physically drained Thornton more than we know.

[chw42]

There is absolutely no guarantee that Santos is going to be a good closer. This is a guy with very few high leverage innings under his belt and hasn't exactly excelled in them (5.01 FIP). You'd be taking a big gamble by placing him there. But outside of Thornton, he is probably the next best option. The thought of having two good left handed setup men does seem inviting.

[clyons]

Note that the Cubs took who was pretty much the best 8th inning guy I've ever seen (Hawkins), moved him to closer where he failed...kept him there in hopes he'd pitch through it...and effectively ruined his career. He never recovered.

 

I'd like to not see that happen to Thornon, and right now, that's exactly what I see, despite it bring early to call this that way, I am anyway...because it's my opinion that the same thing is occurring right before our eyes. Thornton doesnt even look close to comfortable.

 

Yep.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Note that the Cubs took who was pretty much the best 8th inning guy I've ever seen (Hawkins), moved him to closer where he failed...kept him there in hopes he'd pitch through it...and effectively ruined his career. He never recovered.

 

I'd like to not see that happen to Thornton, and right now, that's exactly what I see, despite it bring early to call this that way, I am anyway...because it's my opinion that the same thing is occurring right before our eyes. Thornton doesnt even look close to comfortable.

 

 

I'm with you 100% on this

Ditto.

[Milkman delivers]

There is absolutely no guarantee that Santos is going to be a good closer. This is a guy with very few high leverage innings under his belt and hasn't exactly excelled in them (5.01 FIP). You'd be taking a big gamble by placing him there. But outside of Thornton, he is probably the next best option. The thought of having two good left handed setup men does seem inviting.

 

That's assuming that Thornton returns to his dominance when moved back to setup. It's something I'm not inclined to believe just yet.

[TheBigHurt]

There is absolutely no guarantee that Santos is going to be a good closer. This is a guy with very few high leverage innings under his belt and hasn't exactly excelled in them (5.01 FIP). You'd be taking a big gamble by placing him there. But outside of Thornton, he is probably the next best option. The thought of having two good left handed setup men does seem inviting.

 

I love how guys want to counter an argument about someone looking absolutely terrible and potentially being replaced with "There's no guarantee such-and-such other person will work." No s***, that's why you TRY it. We're taking no bigger a gamble (much less of one, IMO) then leaving our star setup guy in to keep blowing games and regress as has been pointed out over and over. I say give him one last shot and if he still looks this bad... he's done.

[chw42]

That's assuming that Thornton returns to his dominance when moved back to setup. It's something I'm not inclined to believe just yet.

 

It could very well be a physical issue with him. Last year was the first season where arm issues flamed up with him. He's almost 35, so that doesn't seem abnormal.

 

Either way, the Sox are f***ed if Thornton's bad, closer or setup man.

[Soxbadger]

Hawkins wasnt as bad as people make him out to be, he just had a sub 2 era before becoming a closer.

 

There are arguments both sides here, its not an exact science. I did a bunch of research on it because I got in some arguments after Thornton's KC adventure, and the results are inconclusive at best.

 

I have concerns about Thornton, but no one else is a sure thing either.

 

At this point if we make a change, there is no going back (imo), so Im willing to be a little more patient, but as I said, 1-2 more blow saves without actually closing a game, its over.

[Y2HH]

I love how guys want to counter an argument about someone looking absolutely terrible and potentially being replaced with "There's no guarantee such-and-such other person will work." No s***, that's why you TRY it. We're taking no bigger a gamble (much less of one, IMO) then leaving our star setup guy in to keep blowing games and regress as has been pointed out over and over. I say give him one last shot and if he still looks this bad... he's done.

 

I agree wit this, but with a caveat. Simply recording a save isn't enough, IMO, he needs to looking good doing it...not simply record 3 outs all hit to center field that go 399 feet...in that case, again, I say nay nay.

[Y2HH]

Hawkins wasnt as bad as people make him out to be, he just had a sub 2 era before becoming a closer.

 

There are arguments both sides here, its not an exact science. I did a bunch of research on it because I got in some arguments after Thornton's KC adventure, and the results are inconclusive at best.

 

I have concerns about Thornton, but no one else is a sure thing either.

 

At this point if we make a change, there is no going back (imo), so Im willing to be a little more patient, but as I said, 1-2 more blow saves without actually closing a game, its over.

 

Nobody said Hawkins was bad...everyone pretty much agreed he was awesome UNTIL force into that closer role that ruined him mentally, and forever after.

[chw42]

I love how guys want to counter an argument about someone looking absolutely terrible and potentially being replaced with "There's no guarantee such-and-such other person will work." No s***, that's why you TRY it. We're taking no bigger a gamble (much less of one, IMO) then leaving our star setup guy in to keep blowing games and regress as has been pointed out over and over. I say give him one last shot and if he still looks this bad... he's done.

 

How do you know Thornton will continue to fail, given his track record as a great reliever? You do know that even the best relievers in the game go through slumps right? He's had 2 bad innings, supplemented by some terrible defense. What if Santos fails as a closer? Trying is one thing, but you guys are also implicating that failing at closing = possibly messed up mental state. So there's a risk at TRYING, apparently. Yet, you want to TRY.

[Y2HH]

How do you know Thornton will continue to fail, given his track record as a great reliever? You do know that even the best relievers in the game go through slumps right? He's had 2 bad innings, supplemented by some terrible defense. What if Santos fails as a closer? Trying is one thing, but you guys are also implicating that failing at closing = possibly messed up mental state. So there's a risk at TRYING, apparently. Yet, you want to TRY.

 

I think people would be in agreement with you here if Thornton looked remotely dominating...but right now, even bad hitters are making him look like a bad pitcher that isn't even coming close to fooling anyone anymore. It looks like everyone he's faced thus far has caught up with his pitches, which, in fairness, look a lot slower than in previous years.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

You know who Ozzie should have put in as a defensive replacement in LF?

 

Andruw Jones.

 

Oh wait.

[TheBigHurt]

How do you know Thornton will continue to fail, given his track record as a great reliever? You do know that even the best relievers in the game go through slumps right? He's had 2 bad innings, supplemented by some terrible defense. What if Santos fails as a closer? Trying is one thing, but you guys are also implicating that failing at closing = possibly messed up mental state. So there's a risk at TRYING, apparently. Yet, you want to TRY.

 

The point is it's not worth the risk. I don't think I've ever seen Thornton look this bad before. As someone else asked before... did Bobby even blow 3 straight saves?

 

"What if Santos fails as a closer?" Then you try Sale and if that doesn't work we're f***ed and that's the REALITY. I'm not gonna try and tell myself it will work out and there's no way it won't... that's reality. "What ifs" are foolish thing to base arguments entirely on. So far the evidence says Thornton has not looked good at all and Santos has a better arsenal to be a closer. Try it. If it doesn't work it doesn't work but you don't just NOT act on something because you fear it will be worse; like I said before, that's foolish.

 

[Y2HH]

The point is it's not worth the risk. I don't think I've ever seen Thornton look this bad before. As someone else asked before... did Bobby even blow 3 straight saves?

 

"What if Santos fails as a closer?" Then you try Sale and if that doesn't work we're f***ed and that's the REALITY. I'm not gonna try and tell myself it will work out and there's no way it won't... that's reality. "What ifs" are foolish thing to base arguments entirely on. So far the evidence says Thornton has not looked good at all and Santos has a better arsenal to be a closer. Try it. If it doesn't work it doesn't work but you don't just NOT act on something because you fear it will be worse; like I said before, that's foolish.

 

Honestly, I'd consider giving Crain a shot even...and I know people will call me crazy.

[Leonard Zelig]

You know who Ozzie should have put in as a defensive replacement in LF?

 

Andruw Jones.

 

Oh wait.

 

Even if Jones was on the team, he would not have gone in for Pierre.

[TheBigHurt]

Honestly, I'd consider giving Crain a shot even...and I know people will call me crazy.

 

Based on the performances so far... anyone would be a better idea.

[joejoesox]

Tonight was not about luck. Crisp's line drive was good luck for Thornton.

 

THIS.

 

Talk about the dropped fly ball. Yeah, bad break for poor matty! Thank god for Konerko getting a ball blazed right into his glove at 500 MPH. It evened out.

[joejoesox]

Ball being hit hard at a player is an out. Statistically even the best hitters only hit 1/3 times.

 

Bad luck is when something that would normally happen (fly ball that hits a players glove being caught) doesnt happen.

 

Balls get hit hard at players all the time.

 

ALMOST EVERY BALL PUT IN PLAY WITH THORNTON PITCHING HAS BEEN LINE-SHOTS.

 

If you don't understand what this means, I don't know what to tell you. He's getting lit up.

[Wanne]

Just went back and watched the 9th again (like an asshole)...but Thornton was F'd as soon as he rolled that 0-2 slider over the middle of the plate. You could see it in his face. And if Ozzie really defends either Thornton or Pierre...he's an idiot.

[Soxbadger]

Maybe you should read my actual posts instead of jumping to ridiculous conclusions.

 

Maybe go back to the KC thread where I start to question Thornton's stuff. Maybe read tonights thread when I comment about what I saw tonight.

 

But dont act like I dont understand what it means.

 

A lot of people on this board dont understand what it means if we give up on Thornton, cant find anyone else and waste a season because we overreacted in the first week when we are still above 500.

 

Its a 162 game season, we are less than 10 games in. 1/16 is the equivalent of 1 football game. Its way to early to go insane, but like I said 1-2 more outings you have no choice. Right now you can still write it off as bad luck to start, but eventually its not just luck.

 

I guess instead of looking for immediate knee jerk reactions, Im looking at the entire season. Im tired of reading about when we are 3 back in September. Screw that, you make adjustments you get better, if Im going to make a mistake, Id rather it be early in the year.

 

It is what it is, you wake up tomorrow and go back to work. All you can do is give yourself a shot to win every time out, the Sox have done that every game, they are going to win more than they lose if they keep it up.

 

 

[Y2HH]

Maybe you should read my actual posts instead of jumping to ridiculous conclusions.

 

Maybe go back to the KC thread where I start to question Thornton's stuff. Maybe read tonights thread when I comment about what I saw tonight.

 

But dont act like I dont understand what it means.

 

A lot of people on this board dont understand what it means if we give up on Thornton, cant find anyone else and waste a season because we overreacted in the first week when we are still above 500.

 

Its a 162 game season, we are less than 10 games in. 1/16 is the equivalent of 1 football game. Its way to early to go insane, but like I said 1-2 more outings you have no choice. Right now you can still write it off as bad luck to start, but eventually its not just luck.

 

I guess instead of looking for immediate knee jerk reactions, Im looking at the entire season. Im tired of reading about when we are 3 back in September. Screw that, you make adjustments you get better, if Im going to make a mistake, Id rather it be early in the year.

 

It is what it is, you wake up tomorrow and go back to work. All you can do is give yourself a shot to win every time out, the Sox have done that every game, they are going to win more than they lose if they keep it up.

 

True, but it would absolutely suck to lose the division by .5 games because of extending a blown experiment.

 

[The Ginger Kid]

I still like JP in left and trust he'll do better. Tough loss, for sure. Someone in the pen needs to step up, there's an opportunity out there for someone to be the closer on a very good baseball team. I would think a pro would step up and seize it.

[Soxbadger]

If we lose by a half game I will be a lot more mad about a defense that made 2 errors in the bottom of the 9th when we had a 3 run lead, than 1 game where a 1 run lead was blown by a closer.

 

Some days pitchers wont have it, but you have to catch the ball if it hits your glove.

[TheBigHurt]

A lot of people on this board dont understand what it means if we give up on Thornton, cant find anyone else and waste a season because we overreacted in the first week when we are still above 500.

 

 

I understand.

 

It means you face reality rather than be afraid to convince yourself against logical thinking that you should try a better option out of fear it's not going to work, either. "Overreacted?" As has been said, every game counts. Thornton has had absolutely NOTHING so far, which has earned him 3 straight blown saves IIRC. Give him one more go and if it looks the same, there is no way to defend leaving him in the closer role. If you think this is an overreaction you're lying to yourself.