Juan Pierre

[SoxAce]

Thornton worries me more than Pierre. He's been a decent defensive OF (minus the arm) his whole career, I don't think he permanently forgot how to catch a ball. He'll get his head in the right place and be fine.

 

But closing is, IMO, a very different game, mentally. And I am not sure if Matt has the right mindset, nor am I sure he can find it. Some pitchers just don't.

 

I actually feel the opposite. I predicted Pierre will have a down year defensively. So far he has in the early going, but again, it's early. I still think he will finish at a negative UZR however. Thornton will be fine. In fact, he is still the least of my worries in the bullpen.... when he's back to his set-up role, which I agree with your second part.

Edited April 12, 2011 by SoxAce

[Y2HH]

I actually feel the opposite. I predicted Pierre will have a down year defensively. So far he has in the early going, but again, it's early. I still think he will finish at a negative UZR however. Thornton will be fine. In fact, he is still the least of my worries in the bullpen.... when he's back to his set-up role, which I agree with your second part.

 

I don't know...Thornton's "fastball" looks slow...and he's essentially a 1 pitch pitcher. Without that dominating fastball, he's Jenks without the hammer...and that's a big problem.

 

And I have no concerns about Pierre. He's an average outfielder, but dropping fly balls like he's been doing is clearly out of character for him.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Y2HH

[Dick Allen]

Put Thornton back into the 8th. He was the best in the league at that. I realize his stats closing prior to this year were impressive. I realize his defense hasn't helped him at all, but IMO its one thing to be a "spot" or temporary closer, and another to wake up every day realizing you are the closer for the White Sox. Thornton has been blowing people away for years. Whether he's too tight or something else, that isn't happening right now.

 

I don't think I have ever seen more dropped fly balls in 2 seasons combined as I have seen the first two weeks of the season. I don't think I've even seen it in Little League.

[SoxAce]

I don't know...Thornton's "fastball" looks slow...and he's essentially a 1 pitch pitcher. Without that dominating fastball, he's Jenks without the hammer...and that's a big problem.

 

And I have no concerns about Pierre. He's an average outfielder, but dropping fly balls like he's been doing is clearly out of character for him.

 

I agree about the flyballs, I was more talking about overall range, and judgment. and I'll hold off about the "lost MPH fastball" in early April. People were going crazy when Sale was at 92-93 just a couple of days ago.

[Y2HH]

Hell, add in the fact that Matt Thornton genuinely needs to work his way through whatever's going on with him, and pulling M-56 was clearly the right call.

 

I'm not sure people realize this, but an obviously reeling Thornton needed that game, Ozzie put him in a normal save situation against the 29th worst offense in baseball (out of 30), which should have translated to an easy save, and confidence booster.

[Balta1701]

I don't know...Thornton's "fastball" looks slow...and he's essentially a 1 pitch pitcher. Without that dominating fastball, he's Jenks without the hammer...and that's a big problem.

 

And I have no concerns about Pierre. He's an average outfielder, but dropping fly balls like he's been doing is clearly out of character for him.

Trouble is, his fastball looks slow and is still clocking 96.

[Y2HH]

Trouble is, his fastball looks slow and is still clocking 96.

 

On the Billy Koch gun?

[Dick Allen]

On the Billy Koch gun?

Its the same gun that had him at 97-98 in the middle of summer. He's throwing hard enough, he's not locating.

[Balta1701]

On the Billy Koch gun?

If the link goes to the right spot, here's the Pitch F/X data for Thornton last night. Average fastball was 95.6, hit 96.7 at his top.

[Y2HH]

If the link goes to the right spot, here's the Pitch F/X data for Thornton last night. Average fastball was 95.6, hit 96.7 at his top.

 

Wasn't 98 his usual last year, though? While 1-2mph doesn't sound like a lot, at that speed, it's a world of difference.

[Balta1701]

Wasn't 98 his usual last year, though? While 1-2mph doesn't sound like a lot, at that speed, it's a world of difference.

His average fastball last year was 96.1. His average fastball on his career is 95.7.

 

He's exactly where he's been the last 5 years.

[Lillian]

I didn't read all of the posts, and I realize that the thread was supposed to be about Pierre.

However, regarding Thornton; He doesn't appear to have quite the velocity he has had in the past. I haven't seen many of his fastballs hit 97, which is what he used to consistently throw.

He isn't striking people out.

Maybe that's the reason that he has thrown so many more breaking balls. Perhaps he realizes his velocity is down.

 

He really doesn't have enough of an assortment of pitches to be a closer, where he has to face all hitters in the 9th. He's much better suited to be a set up man, and can be removed vs right handed hitters.

 

I like Santos as a closer. He appears to have the mentality, and the right assortment of pitches.

[southsider2k5]

I respectfully disagree with you and others who have made good points. Believe me, I recognize how fragile the closer role is. I just can't get behind Matt's stuff not being sufficient enough. We're not talking Fernando Rodney or Brandon Lyons here.

 

Does anyone else remember what Matt looked like for years before he got here?

[hawksfan61]

The logic is, and was, exactly what the poster you responded too doesn't want to hear. Whether you two want to hear it or not, it is what it is. Ozzie made up his mind that he'd not overuse Buehrle this year, as Buehrle has been running out of gas mid earlier and earlier every year as the innings pile on. Furthermore, it's been said that even in games like this one, Buehrle would be removed...where a closer *should* be able to protect a 1 run lead over an anemic Oakland offense.

 

I would agree if it a 3-0 or 4-0 game and Buehrle was at more than 99 pitches. Mark was cruising and not even over 100 pitches, there is no reason to pull the guy when Oakland couldn't figure him out the whole game and he was on cruise control. Our "closer" doesn't look like he can protect a 10 run lead right now.

[hawksfan61]

Hell, add in the fact that Matt Thornton genuinely needs to work his way through whatever's going on with him, and pulling M-56 was clearly the right call.

 

He should not be working through it in a 1-0 game. 3-0 or 4-0 game, a 1-0 game has no margin for error and you can't bring in a guy who has given up missles his past couple outings.

[southsider2k5]

He should not be working through it in a 1-0 game. 3-0 or 4-0 game, a 1-0 game has no margin for error and you can't bring in a guy who has given up missles his past couple outings.

 

Hey that Will Ohman guy looked really good in his last outing as did Tony Pena!

[klaus kinski]

Dropped balls aside, Pierre's OBP is around .280. He's not doing the job there either.

[Chicago White Sox]

He should not be working through it in a 1-0 game. 3-0 or 4-0 game, a 1-0 game has no margin for error and you can't bring in a guy who has given up missles his past couple outings.

Agreed. Thornton is a mess right now and should be given a low leverage situation to get himself together. Once he shows he can dominate in let's say a five run lead or deficit, you can give him another chance in the closer role. But under no circumstances do you throw a guy out into a save situation who's looked terrible in his last three appearances. We can't afford for him to blow more games while he tries to regain his confidence. We have other options we can use for the time being. I'd use Sale for a couple days until Thornton proves he has the ability to dominate again. If Thornton can't do it in a low leverage situation, then we have more problems than just who the closer is.

[shago]

Really feel bad for Juan Pierre, 2 E in last two seasons, now 2 in 4 games? He is a good defender. He got a lot o support after that game last night.

 

Everything has been said about Thornton already.

You feel BAD for him? Really? The guy blew two games ... As we learned by our luck with bad D in 2005, you give a team extra chances and they will take advantage (except us last night after Kurt dropped the pop-up, but...). He does not deserve our support, he is not a good fielder, and I don't consider someone who gets thrown out as much as he does (caught stealing 175 times in his career) a real base running asset, especially given his limp bat, limp arm, and now, limp glove. Send him back to Wrigley.

[JohnCangelosi]

Hes got at most 1-2 real chances left. Even the biggest supporter would have to question at that point.

 

0-3 I can see is bad luck, but 0-5 thats more than some guys blow in a season.

People were on Bobby bigtime on this board the year he saved 41 of 45 chances. Thornton will need to go near perfect the rest of the way to do that. I miss Bobby.

[shago]

His average fastball last year was 96.1. His average fastball on his career is 95.7.

 

He's exactly where he's been the last 5 years.

Been said already, but speed not the problem. The 4th pitch to LaRoche (yes, Andy LaRoche) was an off-speed pitch right in the middle of the grid. He had him 0-2 using an effective fastball. He can't locate and his fastball is all he's got.

[qwerty]

The logic is, and was, exactly what the poster you responded too doesn't want to hear. Whether you two want to hear it or not, it is what it is. Ozzie made up his mind that he'd not overuse Buehrle this year, as Buehrle has been running out of gas mid earlier and earlier every year as the innings pile on. Furthermore, it's been said that even in games like this one, Buehrle would be removed...where a closer *should* be able to protect a 1 run lead over an anemic Oakland offense.

 

 

So basically your argument is the reason that thornton got pulled to boost his ''confidence''? This is what happened... i can't argue that... but i in no way believe it was the right thing to do. As others have stated, and i just figured it was a given, if he needed this ''confidence'' boost... it could have been done in a slightly less pressure situation. I personally think this confidence argument is a weak one, at best. I see it as nothing more than just another cover up for a boneheaded decision by ozzie guillen.

 

Buehrle being overused? That is baloney. Buehrle is getting his 200 inning+ innings regardless of what ozzie guillen says. Ten consecutive years of 200+ innings ... sure he is not in the 220+ range like he was for his first full five years of starting. What really makes you think that is changing anytime soon? Because ozzie said it? That is a joke right there. We could write a book about all the things that guilen and the organization say... but never actually come close to happening. Buehrle could have easily handled that one additional inning... and on top of everything he was absolutely rolling.

 

The first two lines seemed a bit insulting, you very well may not have intended such, but if you did... you can keep playing that game with thebighurt rather than me.

[Y2HH]

So basically your argument is the reason that thornton got pulled to boost his ''confidence''? This is what happened... i can't argue that... but i in no way believe it was the right thing to do. As others have stated, and i just figured it was a given, if he needed this ''confidence'' boost... it could have been done in a slightly less pressure situation. I personally think this confidence argument is a weak one, at best. I see it as nothing more than just another cover up for a boneheaded decision by ozzie guillen.

 

Buehrle being overused? That is baloney. Buehrle is getting his 200 inning+ innings regardless of what ozzie guillen says. Ten consecutive years of 200+ innings ... sure he is not in the 220+ range like he was for his first full five years of starting. What really makes you think that is changing anytime soon? Because ozzie said it? That is a joke right there. We could write a book about all the things that guilen and the organization say... but never actually come close to happening. Buehrle could have easily handled that one additional inning... and on top of everything he was absolutely rolling.

 

The first two lines seemed a bit insulting, you very well may not have intended such, but if you did... you can keep playing that game with thebighurt rather than me.

 

Thornton got pulled after he gave up a lead off double and Pierre errored, got lucky with that would be base hit line drive hit right at Konerko. At that point Oz knew Thornton was defeated and yanked him...it was over. Giving people a shot to get some confidence is one thing, but understanding when to say when is something else entirely. And at that point last night, it was time to put in Crain.

 

Yes, Buehrle being overused. No, it's not baloney. Buehrle may get 200+ innings, but when an increasing number of those innings are trash (which they have been), it's useless. Eating up innings is fine when you post a 3.5 ERA, eating up innings when you're giving up 4.5+ per game is not unless you are a number 5 starter. Buehrle is not considered a #5, nor is he being paid like a #5.

 

And no, my first two lines weren't the least bit of an insult, but more or less reality. It's what's been said, and the reason why it's been said. Now, again, whether you like it or not (or me for that matter) doesn't matter. The Sox organization made the decision...so it's happening whether we want it too or not.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Y2HH

[iamshack]

Matt will be fine. I'm not sure I want him closing, but as they say, the reports of his demise are greatly exaggerated. He's had spells like this before - and he'll have them again - but this is obviously a bit more glaring because it's happening at the beginning of the season.

 

My guess is Buehrle would have liked to stay in but Oz was trying to get Matt some confidence with an easy save against a team that looked punchless all night. Unfortunately, it didn't work out.

 

Let's not overreact though. Yes, the losses hurt. But Juan Pierre didn't forget how to catch and Matt's 96 mph fastball is not suddenly rendered ineffective. He's just going to need better location and to mix in a quality slider every now and again.

 

[qwerty]

Thornton got pulled after he gave up a lead off double and Pierre errored, got lucky with that would be base hit line drive hit right at Konerko. At that point Oz knew Thornton was defeated and yanked him...it was over. Giving people a shot to get some confidence is one thing, but understanding when to say when is something else entirely. And at that point last night, it was time to put in Crain.

 

Yes, Buehrle being overused. No, it's not baloney. Buehrle may get 200+ innings, but when an increasing number of those innings are trash (which they have been), it's useless. Eating up innings is fine when you post a 3.5 ERA, eating up innings when you're giving up 4.5+ per game is not unless you are a number 5 starter. Buehrle is not considered a #5, nor is he being paid like a #5.

 

I am in no way disagreeing with what ozzie did after buehrle was pulled. If you agree giving people a shot to get some confidence is one thing... then i can't see how you feel it was the right decision to put him in there in a 1-0 game. Winning a game 1-0 is a accomplishment in itself. Generally it happens a handful of times at best... and that is including losing 1-0 also. Psychologically speaking, a 1-0 game seems more intense, more pressure, than lets say a 4-3 game. I may be wrong, but i personally feel different in the first scenario rather than the second... and i know i am not the only one is that regard. Seems to me like a pitcher would feel the same way... but once more i may be entirely wrong, but i don't think i am.

 

Describe these trash innings? You mean when he gives 4-5-6+ runs? Everyone has these ''trash'' innings. So he has a s*** game, one or two great starts nullifies the bad... and that goes for mostly everyone. In the ten years of him starting his era has been above 4 only three times... only twice if you throw out (which you clearly can't) that 2006 aberration year. 2006 was the only year of a 4.5+ era... and as i said... it was nothing more than an abberation. In 2003 buehrle posted a 4.14 era... but his WAR was still a damn fine 4.4 wins. Last year he was at 4.28 and a WAR of 3.3 The three years prior to last year he put up 3.63, 3.79, and 3.84 era. Where does this 4.5+ era come from?

 

In halladay's second year of starting he had a 10.64 era in 67.2 innings... which is a record for that amount of innings pitched. This is a two time cy young winner... and he just may be the best pitcher in all of baseball.

 

One inning was not gonna be the deciding factor if that he has a good season or not ...in any shape or form... and i will stand by that. Buehrle is 32... it's not like we are talking about jamie moyer here... and even he had 2 complete games last year (buehrle had three).

 

Essentially what i am saying is the sox are talking out of their ass... and buehrle will in no way be limited. He will get his 200+ barring injury as i have already stated. I don't see how that is limiting him one bit, but maybe that is just me. During ozzie guillen's tenure he has heavily relied on his starters... which is why the bullpen has literally been the least used during his tenure here. The sox starters also have the most ''quality starts'' which stems from the fact he let's them pitch, and let's them pitch deep into games.

Edited April 12, 2011 by qwerty