Juan Pierre

[Y2HH]

I am in no way disagreeing with what ozzie did after buehrle was pulled. If you agree giving people a shot to get some confidence is one thing... then i can't see how you feel it was the right decision to put him in there in a 1-0 game. Winning a game 1-0 is a accomplishment in itself. Generally it happens a handful of times at best... and that is including losing 1-0 also. Psychologically speaking, a 1-0 game seems more intense, more pressure, than lets say a 4-3 game. I may be wrong, but i personally feel different in the first scenario rather than the second... and i know i am not the only one is that regard. Seems to me like a pitcher would feel the same way... but once more i may be entirely wrong, but i don't think i am.

 

Describe these trash innings? You mean when he gives 4-5-6+ runs? Everyone has these ''trash'' innings. So he has a s*** game, one or two great starts nullifies the bad... and that goes for mostly everyone. In the ten years of him starting his era has been above 4 only three times... only twice if you throw out (which you clearly can't) that 2006 aberration year. 2006 was the only year of a 4.5+ era... and as i said... it was nothing more than an abberation. In 2003 buehrle posted a 4.14 era... but his WAR was still a damn fine 4.4 wins. Last year he was at 4.28 and a WAR of 3.3 The three years prior to last year he put up 3.63, 3.79, and 3.84 era. Where does this 4.5+ era come from?

 

In halladay's second year of starting he had a 10.64 era in 67.2 innings... which is a record for that amount of innings pitched. This is a two time cy young winner... and he just may be the best pitcher in all of baseball.

 

One inning was not gonna be the deciding factor if that he has a good season or not ...in any shape or form... and i will stand by that. Buehrle is 32... it's not like we are talking about jamie moyer here... and even he had 2 complete games last year (buehrle had three).

 

Essentially what i am saying is the sox are talking out of their ass... and buehrle will in no way be limited. He will get his 200+ barring injury as i have already stated. I don't see how that is limiting him one bit, but maybe that is just me. During ozzie guillen's tenure he has heavily relied on his starters... which is why the bullpen has literally been the least used during his tenure here.

 

A fair assessment...however Buehrle himself said he didn't mind getting pulled last night, and has complained of shoulder soreness/dead arm due to workload on a few occasions now.

 

As for his ERA, it's been on the rise, and I'm ignoring 2006, it's obviously he was gassed...again, pointing to why Ozzie is doing what he's doing, to avoid a repeat of that situation. I didn't check statistics, etc...but I remember Buehrle giving up a huge number of hits per inning last year while his fastball becomes less and less effective year after year (at only 32 years of age). Now that Ozzie decides to actually be more careful with MB instead of just talking about it, limiting his innings/pitch count, we want to jump on him for being a terrible manager because of 1 game, that despite pulling MB, we STILL should have won?

 

Also, I don't think it's the inning count that Ozzie is worried about, it's the pitch count. If Buehrle could pitch all 9 innings at 90-95 pitches, I'm sure Ozzie would leave him out there every game and compile 240+ innings. I think they're more concerned with how many pitches it takes him to compile that 200+ innings you keep mentioning.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Y2HH

[iamshack]

I am in no way disagreeing with what ozzie did after buehrle was pulled. If you agree giving people a shot to get some confidence is one thing... then i can't see how you feel it was the right decision to put him in there in a 1-0 game. Winning a game 1-0 is a accomplishment in itself. Generally it happens a handful of times at best... and that is including losing 1-0 also. Psychologically speaking, a 1-0 game seems more intense, more pressure, than lets say a 4-3 game. I may be wrong, but i personally feel different in the first scenario rather than the second... and i know i am not the only one is that regard. Seems to me like a pitcher would feel the same way... but once more i may be entirely wrong, but i don't think i am.

 

Describe these trash innings? You mean when he gives 4-5-6+ runs? Everyone has these ''trash'' innings. So he has a s*** game, one or two great starts nullifies the bad... and that goes for mostly everyone. In the ten years of him starting his era has been above 4 only three times... only twice if you throw out (which you clearly can't) that 2006 aberration year. 2006 was the only year of a 4.5+ era... and as i said... it was nothing more than an abberation. In 2003 buehrle posted a 4.14 era... but his WAR was still a damn fine 4.4 wins. Last year he was at 4.28 and a WAR of 3.3 The three years prior to last year he put up 3.63, 3.79, and 3.84 era. Where does this 4.5+ era come from?

 

In halladay's second year of starting he had a 10.64 era in 67.2 innings... which is a record for that amount of innings pitched. This is a two time cy young winner... and he just may be the best pitcher in all of baseball.

 

One inning was not gonna be the deciding factor if that he has a good season or not ...in any shape or form... and i will stand by that. Buehrle is 32... it's not like we are talking about jamie moyer here... and even he had 2 complete games last year (buehrle had three).

 

Essentially what i am saying is the sox are talking out of their ass... and buehrle will in no way be limited. He will get his 200+ barring injury as i have already stated. I don't see how that is limiting him one bit, but maybe that is just me. During ozzie guillen's tenure he has heavily relied on his starters... which is why the bullpen has literally been the least used during his tenure here. The sox starters also have the most ''quality starts'' which stems from the fact he let's them pitch, and let's them pitch deep into games.

I agree as to the limitation on his innings. Buehrle wanted to finish what he started, but he's saying otherwise because he's not going to throw Ozzie under the bus. Ozzie has had Mark's back a ton of times, and Mark's going to have his manager's here.

 

As for the 1-0 score, you are correct; it's certainly not the easiest of opportunities, but the A's were listless all night and Ozzie was probably thinking Matt could mow them down just as Mark had been. Unfortunately, it turns out Matt's fastball was probably just what the Dr ordered for the A's. I'm not sure a 1-0 chance in this situation would have been any harder than a 2 or 3 run lead though where the opposite team has been hitting well. Say a 7-5 game or whatever. But who knows. It turned out poorly.

[103 mph screwball]

I'm not ready to give up on Pierre just yet. Errors happen and he doesn't have a history of making too many. He has made some catches that other would not have gotten to. He is not hitting the way everyone would like him to yet, but he is having a better April than last year and with Morel, AJ and Ramirez getting on base, he has even had some nice RBI. Get him a little rest, change the steal sign, and cheer for him to put the errors behind him.

[qwerty]

A fair assessment...however Buehrle himself said he didn't mind getting pulled last night, and has complained of shoulder soreness/dead arm due to workload on a few occasions now.

 

As for his ERA, it's been on the rise, and I'm ignoring 2006, it's obviously he was gassed...again, pointing to why Ozzie is doing what he's doing, to avoid a repeat of that situation. I didn't check statistics, etc...but I remember Buehrle giving up a huge number of hits per inning last year while his fastball becomes less and less effective year after year (at only 32 years of age). Now that Ozzie decides to actually be more careful with MB instead of just talking about it, limiting his innings/pitch count, we want to jump on him for being a terrible manager because of 1 game, that despite pulling MB, we STILL should have won?

 

Also, I don't think it's the inning count that Ozzie is worried about, it's the pitch count. If Buehrle could pitch all 9 innings at 90-95 pitches, I'm sure Ozzie would leave him out there every game and compile 240+ innings. I think they're more concerned with how many pitches it takes him to compile that 200+ innings you keep mentioning.

 

Sure his era increased 0.21 in a three year time span, from 2007 to 2009. I personally view last season (4.28 era) as a little bump in the road, a hiccup if you rather, that happens to the best of them.

 

I agree they still should have won last nights game, no doubt about it. I am jumping on no one by the way... just calling it how i see it. Check out some other boards sometime if you really want to see manager bashing, soxtalk is mild in comparison, let me tell you. Also, last nights game was just as important as any. I hate the theory of saving a guy for later in the season to win a game, when the game at hand is just as important. So you lose the game now... in hope of winning one down the road? Hope is the key word here. Makes no sense. Not even a little bit.

 

Anyway, i would be willing to bet buehrle has at least five games this season in which he throws 110 pitches or more... which would totally go against what they are saying. Buehrle said he was cool with being taken out. But we all know what someone says... and how they truly feel are two different things entirely. Buehrle is just about the last person to start a word war with the org. Even if he was truly pissed he was not sent back out there to complete the game... we would never know... only those in the locker room would have a clue.

 

2007- 3.71 pit/pa.

 

2008- 3.69 pit/pa.

 

2009- 3.67 pit/pa.

 

2010- 3.68 pit/pa.

 

This is where buehrle is at, and it is unlikely to change any time soon. I would also be willing to bet that he throws 2000+ pitches like he has done every year but two... and in the two he missed the 2000 mark he had 1998, and 1995 thrown.

 

I personally just think they are bluffing, as it's common, and this should be expected in all sports. Could just be me... but that is how i see it.

Edited April 12, 2011 by qwerty

[chetkincaid]

I'm not ready to give up on Pierre just yet. Errors happen and he doesn't have a history of making too many. He has made some catches that other would not have gotten to. He is not hitting the way everyone would like him to yet, but he is having a better April than last year and with Morel, AJ and Ramirez getting on base, he has even had some nice RBI. Get him a little rest, change the steal sign, and cheer for him to put the errors behind him.

 

 

This is what I'm saying. JP will be fine. Errors happen and his just happened when the game was on the line. Plus I think the wind had a lot to do with him missing that fly ball last night.

 

Let's not go in to full meltdown mode yet. Let's be thankful that we're not Redsocks fans.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Chet Kincaid

[oldsox]

Can Teahan play left?

[qwerty]

Can Teahan play left?

 

Sure, he has. Now how good he would be is a different story. In his career his time in left has been limited in comparison to right field. With the sox he has been out there for one inning... and just so happened to make an error.

[Y2HH]

Sure, he has. Now how good he would be is a different story. In his career his time in left has been limited in comparison to right field. With the sox he has been out there for one inning... and just so happened to make an error.

 

Not to mention Teahen has a dropped ball in LF this year, too...if I'm not mistaken. That makes him half as bad as JP, only with 1/20th the number of innings logged in left.

[qwerty]

Not to mention Teahen has a dropped ball in LF this year, too...if I'm not mistaken. That makes him half as bad as JP, only with 1/20th the number of innings logged in left.

 

Yes, that dropped ball was the error i mentioned, it happened on the 6th against the royals. The sox had four errors in that game... teahen, konerko, morel, ramirez... and they still managed to win the game 10-7.

Edited April 12, 2011 by qwerty

[iamshack]

You do not want Teahen out there instead of Pierre.

[justBLAZE]

Pierre is a fine defender, he tripped yesterday, s*** happens. If you give Matt the benefit of the doubt, Pierre deserves it too.

[RockRaines]

We are going to lose about 50+ more of these. Better to not overanalyze each one, especially this early.

[hi8is]

Pierre is a fine defender, he tripped yesterday, s*** happens. If you give Matt the benefit of the doubt, Pierre deserves it too.

I'm not in the corner of those giving Matt a free ride or of the belief that he'll pull out of it. We need to get someone in these games who has the stuff now to get the job done. Poor hitting teams have been mashing Matt and the only thing in the way of Ozzie continuing to trott him out is pride.

 

Swallow it, Ozzie.

[Steve9347]

Swallow it, Ozzie.

That's what you said.

[SoxPride56]

I'm not in the corner of those giving Matt a free ride or of the belief that he'll pull out of it. We need to get someone in these games who has the stuff now to get the job done. Poor hitting teams have been mashing Matt and the only thing in the way of Ozzie continuing to trott him out is pride.

 

Swallow it, Ozzie.

[hi8is]

That's what you said.

A humbling task - indeed.

[IamtheHBOMB]

Note that the Cubs took who was pretty much the best 8th inning guy I've ever seen (Hawkins), moved him to closer where he failed...kept him there in hopes he'd pitch through it...and effectively ruined his career. He never recovered.

 

I'd like to not see that happen to Thornon, and right now, that's exactly what I see, despite it bring early to call this that way, I am anyway...because it's my opinion that the same thing is occurring right before our eyes. Thornton doesnt even look close to comfortable.

 

I'm pretty sure that Hawkins for closed for the Twins for a while. I seem to remember him losing the job to Guardado and then going back to destroying hitters as a set up man without missing a beat. So, how exactly did the Cubs ruin him? It wasn't as if he hadn't experienced failure in the 9th inning before playing for the Cubs.

[whitesoxfan99]

I'm pretty sure that Hawkins for closed for the Twins for a while. I seem to remember him losing the job to Guardado and then going back to destroying hitters as a set up man without missing a beat. So, how exactly did the Cubs ruin him? It wasn't as if he hadn't experienced failure in the 9th inning before playing for the Cubs.

 

He was absolutely horrible as the Twins closer in 2001 and he had never really been that good before that season. For the next two years after his failure as a closer he was a dominant setup man and then he had a strange season with the Cubs in 2004 where he blew quite a few saves but his numbers were actually really good and since then he has been mostly been mediocre to bad with a very good season in 2009 for the Astros. The league is littered with guys who were great relievers for a couple of years and then lost it. Hell, look at the 2005 White Sox. Cotts and Politte were both filthy that year and Cotts has been consistently awful since and Politte was out of baseball after 2006.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I've always been a Juan Pierre fan. But this is ridiculous. What will it take for Ozzie to bench this clown for a few days?

[Balta1701]

I've always been a Juan Pierre fan. But this is ridiculous. What will it take for Ozzie to bench this clown for a few days?

Yeah, that .317 batting average and .354 OBP are ridiculous. WE NEED TO LOSE MORE GAMES OZZIE!

[Jordan4life_2007]

Yeah, that .317 batting average and .354 OBP are ridiculous. WE NEED TO LOSE MORE GAMES OZZIE!

 

Make that .292 after today's suckfest. JP is exhibit A on why BA is overrated. Did anybody think for a second Juan would come through in an RBI situation?

[Wanne]

Ya know...I'm almost ready to take a month or so off during the BB playoffs. It's waaaaaaaaaaay too early to toss in the towel or anoint so-and-so sucks IMO. Hell...look how he started last year. I'm not trying to be Rah-Rah or anything...I'm as pissed off as anybody. But this team cannot fall too much below .500 and expect to contend.

[oldsox]

Don't think the Sox will offer arbitration to JP after this season.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Don't think the Sox will offer arbitration to JP after this season.

 

They better not. I've had enough of JP to last two lifetimes.

[The Gooch]

Make that .292 after today's suckfest. JP is exhibit A on why BA is overrated. Did anybody think for a second Juan would come through in an RBI situation?

 

And getting picked off first right away is about the same as not getting a hit at all, so subtract a few more from that