Juan Pierre

[fathom]

Frankly, yes. The only fair way to evaluate things is in aggregate.

 

Even I agree with this

[Balta1701]

Even I agree with this

If we don't win it this year, that's 3 years in a row where we failed to live up to expectations. Conversely, if somehow we can get this thing, that's 2 central titles in 4 years. One of those is fireable, the other gets an extension.

[balfanman]

Juan Pierre may or may not have lost a step (another), I really don't know. I do seem to remember that even though his stolen base percentage was barely acceptable last season. it seemed that many of his successful attempts last year were plays where the throw beat him to the bag, but J.P. used some deceptive slides (hand placement, etc.) to get the safe call. Maybe the defenders aren't falling for that anymore so his success rate has dropped.

 

Anyone else remember this, or am I misremembering?

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Juan Pierre may or may not have lost a step (another), I really don't know. I do seem to remember that even though his stolen base percentage was barely acceptable last season. it seemed that many of his successful attempts last year were plays where the throw beat him to the bag, but J.P. used some deceptive slides (hand placement, etc.) to get the safe call. Maybe the defenders aren't falling for that anymore so his success rate has dropped.

 

Anyone else remember this, or am I misremembering?

 

No, you are right. If I remember correctly, he did it like 2-3 times in the same series vs. the Cubs and just made Castro look like really bad with those deceptive hand jives. I haven't seen him use that very much at all this year.

 

Yeah, here we go....

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=9395015

and

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=8942857

Edited June 10, 2011 by JoeCoolMan24

[Balta1701]

Pierre just laid down a perfect bunt single.

[TheBigHurt]

Frankly, yes. The only fair way to evaluate things is in aggregate.

 

So a bad decision ceases to be a bad decision if the game is eventually won?

 

You're sounding like greg now, Balta.

[StrangeSox]

He's done a phenomenal job of not over-reacting like a bunch of nut jobs here and staying calm and as a result the players responded. Ozzie has a tremendous ability to try and put his players in the best chance to succeed. That might not be in-game managing but it is an art that he has managed exceptionally, well, imo. And I know someone will now make a bunch of posts about how Kotsay being DH was a position he couldn't excel at, but by and large, Ozzie has done that and you'll hear a lot of his current and former players allude to that.

 

Ozzie understands how up and down the game of baseball is and he isn't going to overreact to things too often. I have problems with some of his ridiculous comments and some of the things he does, but by and large, he's a good manager. The question to me is at some point, players tune guys out or maybe just need to hear another voice, and when that type comes, it comes. It will happen to pretty much every mgr and coach.

awesome satire!

 

[StrangeSox]

So a bad decision ceases to be a bad decision if the game is eventually won?

 

You're sounding like greg now, Balta.

 

Yeah, you can win in spite of bad management.

[southsider2k5]

Do they keep track of "Bunts for base hits" as a stat somewhere? It seems like 2003 Pierre pretty much won a world series by doing that.

 

Bunt hits are tracked. Add one more from last night.

[southsider2k5]

Yeah, you can win in spite of bad management.

 

You can also lose in spite of good management. Just sayin.

[Balta1701]

So a bad decision ceases to be a bad decision if the game is eventually won?

 

You're sounding like greg now, Balta.

The argument that is made in reply is that moves which appear to be horrible decisions at the time can come back and help you later.

 

Hypotheticals. Maybe allowing Pierre to have a free hand to run right now makes him realize there's something wrong with his technique and he snaps off 25 straight steals to end the season. Maybe putting out the sunday lineup in the 3rd game of every series keeps guys more rested and they have a better than expected September. Maybe benching Brent Morel for the month of May for no obvious reason gave him more time to work on his swing and he'll hit 3-4 extra HR down the stretch. Maybe Alexei bunting into that triple play finally sent Alexei in to work on his bunting skills and he'll wind up with an important sacrifice sometime in August against the Twins.

 

I don't believe all (any?) of those, but if one positive thing comes out of 3 -4 negative things by a manager, that 1 positive thing can produce enough wins to make all of the seeming mistakes worth it.

 

So yes, the only fair way to evaluate things is in aggregate.

[Chisoxfn]

If we don't win it this year, that's 3 years in a row where we failed to live up to expectations. Conversely, if somehow we can get this thing, that's 2 central titles in 4 years. One of those is fireable, the other gets an extension.

Completely agree. I also think Ozzie has done a great job handling guys like Sale, Morel, Beckham, and Ramirez. And quite frankly those guys are part of the future of the organization. He's also done great with Danks making sure to publicly back him and telling him to forget about what happens, etc.

 

Love the way he's handled Rios and Dunn too. The reality is we are paying both of them money to produce and while they havent', Ozzie is smart enough to know our best chances to truly be a dangerous team is to get them firing and the way he has publicly handled there struggles and from what it appears (also internally), I've been impressed. Whether his strategy ends up working with the guys, who knows, but regardless I like that approach.

 

I can think of a few times that I got pissed at a decision he made as a manager, but I read the game threads, a lot of people will b**** if he does and b**** if he doesn't and that just isn't fair to any manager.

 

Oh, did I mention, Ozzie also seemed to do a nice job after Thornton struggled. And I think the way he handled that situation might be partially why Thornton has been able to turn things around (he is also way too good to be that bad for an extended period of time, without some sort of injury).

[Chisoxfn]

And for all the b****ing, Juan Pierre did put up a .365 OBP (.285 avg) in the month of May. May also happened to be a solid month for the club. He also had a > .700 OPS. June hasn't been as kind to Juan yet., but he had a nice game yesterday and that alone (given the small sample size of at bats thus far in June), will make his current June stats respectable.

 

Basically put, Juan has been playing pretty darn well the past month (offensively). The problem is he did give up a good number of this hits getting thrown out.

[maggsmaggs]

And for all the b****ing, Juan Pierre did put up a .365 OBP (.285 avg) in the month of May. May also happened to be a solid month for the club. He also had a > .700 OPS. June hasn't been as kind to Juan yet., but he had a nice game yesterday and that alone (given the small sample size of at bats thus far in June), will make his current June stats respectable.

 

Basically put, Juan has been playing pretty darn well the past month (offensively). The problem is he did give up a good number of this hits getting thrown out.

Pretty darn well is relative though. For Juan, yes. For the average major league baseball player, his May was still bad. He can't field worth a s***, and has the worst outfield arm in baseball.

 

Should we really be happy our $9 million starting LF had a .704 OPS in May?

 

Juan is a horrible baseball player who deserves to be riding the pine of a Major League bench.

 

Tank has an immensely better arm, probably can't field much worse and would be an instant offensive upgrade of close to .200 OPS, if not more.

Edited June 10, 2011 by maggsmaggs

[BigSqwert]

Pretty darn well is relative though. For Juan, yes. For the average major league baseball player, his May was still bad. He can't field worth a s***, and has the worst outfield arm in baseball.

 

Should we really be happy our $9 million starting LF had a .704 OPS in May?

 

Juan is a horrible baseball player who deserves to be riding the pine of a Major League bench.

 

Tank has an immensely better arm, probably can't field much worse and would be an instant offensive upgrade of close to .200 OPS, if not more.

Indeed. It's so blatantly obvious that Viciedo is a huge upgrade that it boggles the mind that the front office continues to ignore the situation.

[Steve9347]

What happens if Pierre continues costing games and sometime in July he's replaced by a Cuban Monster who puts up a .950 OPS and propels the team to the Central? Who wins then?

Cuban Monsters putting up .870 OPS's in AAA don't often put up .950 OPS's in the Majors.

 

Just sayin', I'd still love to see him up here, and if he did put up a .950 I'd have to call a doctor because my erection would last more than four hours. He'd then ask what I took, and I'd say, "I took Cuban Tank".

 

He'd probably hang up.

[chw42]

Cuban Monsters putting up .870 OPS's in AAA don't often put up .950 OPS's in the Majors.

 

Just sayin', I'd still love to see him up here, and if he did put up a .950 I'd have to call a doctor because my erection would last more than four hours. He'd then ask what I took, and I'd say, "I took Cuban Tank".

 

He'd probably hang up.

 

FWIW, Viciedo's Minor League Equivalency for his numbers this season would translate to a .265/.307/.431 line at the Major League level.

 

However, Viciedo's shown he can hit at the ML level at a much better rate. So it's only fair to think that Viciedo could very well put up a .850 OPS with the big club given his improved patience at the plate.

[Balta1701]

Cuban Monsters putting up .870 OPS's in AAA don't often put up .950 OPS's in the Majors.

 

Just sayin', I'd still love to see him up here, and if he did put up a .950 I'd have to call a doctor because my erection would last more than four hours. He'd then ask what I took, and I'd say, "I took Cuban Tank".

 

He'd probably hang up.

I'd love to know what his OPS is if you toss out the first 2 weeks when he was in a slump.l

[ILMOU]

Cuban Monsters putting up .870 OPS's in AAA don't often put up .950 OPS's in the Majors.

 

Just sayin', I'd still love to see him up here, and if he did put up a .950 I'd have to call a doctor because my erection would last more than four hours. He'd then ask what I took, and I'd say, "I took Cuban Tank".

 

He'd probably hang up.

 

OPS over 1000 since May 1st. Just sayin.

[Balta1701]

Pierre gets the day off today after the 0/5 last night. The Stealth Elf starting in LF and leading off.

[shago]

Completely agree. I also think Ozzie has done a great job handling guys like Sale, Morel, Beckham, and Ramirez. And quite frankly those guys are part of the future of the organization. He's also done great with Danks making sure to publicly back him and telling him to forget about what happens, etc.

 

Love the way he's handled Rios and Dunn too. The reality is we are paying both of them money to produce and while they havent', Ozzie is smart enough to know our best chances to truly be a dangerous team is to get them firing and the way he has publicly handled there struggles and from what it appears (also internally), I've been impressed. Whether his strategy ends up working with the guys, who knows, but regardless I like that approach.

 

I can think of a few times that I got pissed at a decision he made as a manager, but I read the game threads, a lot of people will b**** if he does and b**** if he doesn't and that just isn't fair to any manager.

 

Oh, did I mention, Ozzie also seemed to do a nice job after Thornton struggled. And I think the way he handled that situation might be partially why Thornton has been able to turn things around (he is also way too good to be that bad for an extended period of time, without some sort of injury).

Really????????

[OilCan]

IMHO, Oz has been doing better at decision-making, managing. I didn't like at first how he handled Brent Morel, riding him on the bench, but....Brent has come out better, so no more complaints from me.

 

It's too easy to nit-pick every single day on someone and not take the time to give someone credit for the good that they're doing, like we don't acknowledge of it. For the good Pierre has done, which I'm not going to dissect every little detail, good or bad...I feel that his every-day playing is over. The eye-test has told me that he's lost a step both defensively and his strongest asset which was running, as well as when you have those two now as a negative, and being just a slap hitter, well...that's not good.

 

I feel that if you start to platoon, at the very least, Lillibridge and Pierre in LF from this point on, then you'll have Juan's legs fresher which hopefully will help him out, while getting some ABs to the Stealth Elf, who's been playing out of his mind all year and has proven that he should be getting some more ABs.

[macsandz]

IMHO, Oz has been doing better at decision-making, managing. I didn't like at first how he handled Brent Morel, riding him on the bench, but....Brent has come out better, so no more complaints from me.

 

It's too easy to nit-pick every single day on someone and not take the time to give someone credit for the good that they're doing, like we don't acknowledge of it. For the good Pierre has done, which I'm not going to dissect every little detail, good or bad...I feel that his every-day playing is over. The eye-test has told me that he's lost a step both defensively and his strongest asset which was running, as well as when you have those two now as a negative, and being just a slap hitter, well...that's not good.

 

I feel that if you start to platoon, at the very least, Lillibridge and Pierre in LF from this point on, then you'll have Juan's legs fresher which hopefully will help him out, while getting some ABs to the Stealth Elf, who's been playing out of his mind all year and has proven that he should be getting some more ABs.

 

Good call. I think that's what Ozzie is moving toward.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Is Pierre's contract due this offseason? Looks like the dude has lost a few steps on the bases. With his atrocious bat and mediocre speed, I rather have a platoon of Lillibridge and Tyler Kuhn at LF next season.

Edited June 12, 2011 by thxfrthmmrs

[Balta1701]

Is Pierre's contract due this offseason? Looks like the dude has lost a few steps on the bases. With his atrocious bat and mediocre split, I rather have a platoon of Lillibridge and Tyler Kuhn at LF next season.

Yes, Juan Pierre's contract ends after this season.