Juan Pierre

[Chisoxfn]

This is where I've got to disagree with you Jas. You may be hard pressed to believe that in one year Juan Pierre's defense has completely fallen off the table, but it has. He had a couple week stretch where he didn't cost us a game in May, but even when that was going on there were several misplayed/adventures out there where he barely recovered on balls that last year's Pierre would have gotten to easily. 2010 Pierre would have made last night's catch while pulling up at the end, with room to spare.

 

He's playing like 2006 Podsednik out there. He is getting poor jumps, taking bad routes to balls, and when he's close to a difficult catch it bounces off his glove.

And I said, he's playing below average. But guys have had slumps before and it is pretty crazy to me that a guy could have just "lost" it that quick defensively. I don't know what it is, and maybe it is a physical thing where as he's gotten older he's lost some vision or doesn't see as well at night or loses depth perception. I agree that he's struggled, but I also don't see much better of an alternative right now.

 

If we really wanted to, I'd be ok with Lilli at the top spot (as I mentioned in the post above this) but I still see Dunn and Rios being far more worthless offensively than Pierre right now (someone will point to me Dunn's OBP but he's been worthless so far). The problem is, right now, Ozzie wants to see these guys improve, if they don't, than I think by the end of June/early July we will see Viciedo get his chance. Until than, I don't have a problem with what Ozzie has been doing and I think its why his guys truly like playing for him.

 

This has been Ozzie's best season as manager, imo.

[chw42]

What about when you have Dunn hitting like garbage or Rios being worthless. Pierre has at least hit and done a decent job of that over the past month and defensively outside of maybe yesterday's play (which wasn't near the gaffe that some of you make it out to be, imo), he's been improved. He was really bad that first month of the seaosn, but since than he's been better. Still, his lack of efficient base-stealing is costly and it is why I would prefer a better alternative and I honestly think I would have Lillibridge leading off for this club right now. However, that is a big risk. Maybe we put too much pressure on Lilli and he regresses and we lose out on what could be a guy turning into a solid everyday player (who is playing some insanely awesome defense).

 

Dunn and Rios are still in their prime, Pierre's been thought of as a regressing player for a while now. There's still a good chance Rios and Dunn bounce back, especially Dunn. But there's the age/physical hurdle for Pierre to overcome.

[NorthSideSox72]

Dunn and Rios are still in their prime, Pierre's been thought of as a regressing player for a while now. There's still a good chance Rios and Dunn bounce back, especially Dunn. But there's the age/physical hurdle for Pierre to overcome.

Have to agree, I think Pierre may not come back, or at least not enough. I'm sure he'll have some hot streaks just like any player, but age will not treat him well on the diamond.

 

[Harry Chappas]

There is something wrong with Pierre without a doubt.

 

He is not stealing bases and he is Pods like in the OF as what happened with Pods in 2006

 

Why not give him a couple of a days off?

 

I am not even getting into OBP and Avg. as he has shown he can get hot and end up around .295

 

For soem reason Guillen think he can not play wihtout a small slappy grinder that can bunt to lead off.

 

I find it funny that Kevin Youkilias lead off for Boston

[Chisoxfn]

Dunn and Rios are still in their prime, Pierre's been thought of as a regressing player for a while now. There's still a good chance Rios and Dunn bounce back, especially Dunn. But there's the age/physical hurdle for Pierre to overcome.

If I was going to bet on any of the 3 players to bounce back, it be rios. He's so talented and still physically there. The problem is, he's in such a funk and mechanically I think he needs to make an adjustment to that swing.

 

Dunn is out of shape and has a slow bat thus far and Pierre is pretty much him (just slower). That said, I still think Dunn could turn things around to (or I sure as heck hope he can). My hatred of him probably makes me more biased though.

 

I'm just trying to point out to you guys that talking in these crazy absolutely is detrimental to the overall quality of the board. I get that Pierre isn't ideal, I really do. But I have to respond when I see some of the stuff getting thrown around in here. If a good chunk of Soxtalk ran everything, every player would get cut within a week of making the roster since as soon as something bad happens, they are immediately the worst of all time at this or that, etc.

 

It just isn't true. Baseball is a long season and you fail a lot more than you suceed and intangibles and other factors not measured directly by some of the new power stat (like OBP/OPS/WAR/etc) do exist. And sometimes you just have to ride out guys slumps because they have proven they are capable major leaguers (no, they aren't all all stars and we'd love to have better guys at different spots) but you just have to be patient and hope it is just a slump. Think about how Boston has ridden out some of Big Papi's slumps. Just my 2 cents.

[NorthSideSox72]

If I was going to bet on any of the 3 players to bounce back, it be rios. He's so talented and still physically there. The problem is, he's in such a funk and mechanically I think he needs to make an adjustment to that swing.

 

Dunn is out of shape and has a slow bat thus far and Pierre is pretty much him (just slower). That said, I still think Dunn could turn things around to (or I sure as heck hope he can). My hatred of him probably makes me more biased though.

 

I'm just trying to point out to you guys that talking in these crazy absolutely is detrimental to the overall quality of the board. I get that Pierre isn't ideal, I really do. But I have to respond when I see some of the stuff getting thrown around in here. If a good chunk of Soxtalk ran everything, every player would get cut within a week of making the roster since as soon as something bad happens, they are immediately the worst of all time at this or that, etc.

 

It just isn't true. Baseball is a long season and you fail a lot more than you suceed and intangibles and other factors not measured directly by some of the new power stat (like OBP/OPS/WAR/etc) do exist. And sometimes you just have to ride out guys slumps because they have proven they are capable major leaguers (no, they aren't all all stars and we'd love to have better guys at different spots) but you just have to be patient and hope it is just a slump. Think about how Boston has ridden out some of Big Papi's slumps. Just my 2 cents.

 

I agree that the hyperbole is terrible.

 

However, in reply to your bolded... Juan Pierre if "just slower" is no longer a starting major league ballplayer. His ability to steal a lot of bases at a 75%+ clip, and cover ground in the OF with his speed, are not pieces of his game he can do without. Without them he's just not good enough.

 

[Soxbadger]

I generally am pretty forgiving with players, but something is really wrong with Pierre's defense. Hes getting bad reads on a lot of hits, and many times going towards the wall he just jumps in the air, not even making a play on the ball.

 

That has nothing to do with speed, so its strange.

[Balta1701]

I generally am pretty forgiving with players, but something is really wrong with Pierre's defense. Hes getting bad reads on a lot of hits, and many times going towards the wall he just jumps in the air, not even making a play on the ball.

 

That has nothing to do with speed, so its strange.

and it's the complete opposite of what he did last year too.

[chw42]

If I was going to bet on any of the 3 players to bounce back, it be rios. He's so talented and still physically there. The problem is, he's in such a funk and mechanically I think he needs to make an adjustment to that swing.

 

Dunn is out of shape and has a slow bat thus far and Pierre is pretty much him (just slower). That said, I still think Dunn could turn things around to (or I sure as heck hope he can). My hatred of him probably makes me more biased though.

 

I'm just trying to point out to you guys that talking in these crazy absolutely is detrimental to the overall quality of the board. I get that Pierre isn't ideal, I really do. But I have to respond when I see some of the stuff getting thrown around in here. If a good chunk of Soxtalk ran everything, every player would get cut within a week of making the roster since as soon as something bad happens, they are immediately the worst of all time at this or that, etc.

 

It just isn't true. Baseball is a long season and you fail a lot more than you suceed and intangibles and other factors not measured directly by some of the new power stat (like OBP/OPS/WAR/etc) do exist. And sometimes you just have to ride out guys slumps because they have proven they are capable major leaguers (no, they aren't all all stars and we'd love to have better guys at different spots) but you just have to be patient and hope it is just a slump. Think about how Boston has ridden out some of Big Papi's slumps. Just my 2 cents.

 

Players like Dunn and Ortiz are more likely overcome these slumps. They have old people skills (walks and power) and these are skills that are easy to sustain with age. So their talent doesn't regress as heavily with time and eventually, their luck will turn around and they'll start hitting, get their confidence back and that'll be that.

 

I don't even know what to do with Rios. He's so mechanically and mentally screwed that they should just erase all of his stats on the scoreboard and make sure he doesn't think too much about it. This is when Walker's supposed to help his hitters or maybe Rios just isn't listening. But you'd think with his desperation at the level it is, he would have gone to Walker for help already.

[chw42]

I generally am pretty forgiving with players, but something is really wrong with Pierre's defense. Hes getting bad reads on a lot of hits, and many times going towards the wall he just jumps in the air, not even making a play on the ball.

 

That has nothing to do with speed, so its strange.

 

This too. His range isn't that bad, he's just not finishing the plays or getting good reads on them. It's more or less a confidence thing, but his inability swipe bases also tells me it could be a physical issue.

[Steve9347]

[fathom]

The biggest problem with Pierre's defense is that he seems so timid to go after fly balls that he's never running at full speed. If you look at the fly balls he's dropped at the Cell, he keeps stopping and starting numerous times because it's like he wants anyone else to catch the ball besides him. And maybe it's me, but Juan getting a random single once a game and then being caught stealing is just as mediocre as Dunn striking out 3 times in a game.

[fathom]

Also, just because Dunn and Rios are having seasons from hell doesn't mean Juan should be excused for how bad he's been. Left field is one of the easier positions in all of baseball to find a replacement player, especially when you have Viciedo tearing up the minors (and LF being very easy to play at the Cell).

[BigEdWalsh]

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=15272455

 

the most hilarious attempt to catch a ball

I love that feeble leap....it is pretty f***ing funny. LOL!! It looked like he jumped as if to show "hey, look at me, I'm trying".

[Chisoxfn]

I agree that the hyperbole is terrible.

 

However, in reply to your bolded... Juan Pierre if "just slower" is no longer a starting major league ballplayer. His ability to steal a lot of bases at a 75%+ clip, and cover ground in the OF with his speed, are not pieces of his game he can do without. Without them he's just not good enough.

To me the question is how much "slower" is he and I don't personally know that answer. Part of him getting thrown out could just be him having a flaw in his technique when it comes to getting good jumps and part of that is about confidence. The more he "thinks" about something, the slower he might appear. As long as he has above average speed, he should be a solid player. When that skill isn't there, than I think it is time that he is reduced to more of a bench role.

 

I personally don't know if I've seen enough to say he doesn't have the speed anymore to be effective or if it is more of a mental thing as of this point. Kind of like how fathom points out that part of his problems in defense seem to be his “timidness”. I don’t know the answer because I’m not around Pierre enough to see first-hand the difference in his actual skills (e.g., his practice, the time it takes him to get from 1st to 2nd, etc). The eye test isn’t pretty to date, but as I pointed out above, part of that could be due to practice or a slump. The longer it goes though, the more you think it isn’t a slump anymore.

 

[southsider2k5]

To me the question is how much "slower" is he and I don't personally know that answer. Part of him getting thrown out could just be him having a flaw in his technique when it comes to getting good jumps and part of that is about confidence. The more he "thinks" about something, the slower he might appear. As long as he has above average speed, he should be a solid player. When that skill isn't there, than I think it is time that he is reduced to more of a bench role.

 

I personally don't know if I've seen enough to say he doesn't have the speed anymore to be effective or if it is more of a mental thing as of this point. Kind of like how fathom points out that part of his problems in defense seem to be his “timidness”. I don’t know the answer because I’m not around Pierre enough to see first-hand the difference in his actual skills (e.g., his practice, the time it takes him to get from 1st to 2nd, etc). The eye test isn’t pretty to date, but as I pointed out above, part of that could be due to practice or a slump. The longer it goes though, the more you think it isn’t a slump anymore.

 

He has looked for a while like he is nursing a pulled hammy or groin. Pierre has no explosiveness right now.

[fathom]

To me the question is how much "slower" is he and I don't personally know that answer. Part of him getting thrown out could just be him having a flaw in his technique when it comes to getting good jumps and part of that is about confidence. The more he "thinks" about something, the slower he might appear. As long as he has above average speed, he should be a solid player. When that skill isn't there, than I think it is time that he is reduced to more of a bench role.

 

I personally don't know if I've seen enough to say he doesn't have the speed anymore to be effective or if it is more of a mental thing as of this point. Kind of like how fathom points out that part of his problems in defense seem to be his "timidness". I don't know the answer because I'm not around Pierre enough to see first-hand the difference in his actual skills (e.g., his practice, the time it takes him to get from 1st to 2nd, etc). The eye test isn't pretty to date, but as I pointed out above, part of that could be due to practice or a slump. The longer it goes though, the more you think it isn't a slump anymore.

 

I thought Pierre had lost a step last year compared to his time on the Marlins, and I'd say comparing last year to this year, he's lost another step if not more. The most telling play to illustrate this was when he hit a line drive into the right field corner against the Indians, and the old Pierre would have had an easy triple on this play. However, the 2011 Pierre didn't even round second base, and settled for a double. He's even had a few instances where his jumps haven't been bad, and he was still thrown out with ease. Most of his steals this year have been on bad throws. My best analogy is that if Pierre was a pitcher, he would have used to throw 97 mph but now throws 91 mph.

[NorthSideSox72]

To me the question is how much "slower" is he and I don't personally know that answer. Part of him getting thrown out could just be him having a flaw in his technique when it comes to getting good jumps and part of that is about confidence. The more he "thinks" about something, the slower he might appear. As long as he has above average speed, he should be a solid player. When that skill isn't there, than I think it is time that he is reduced to more of a bench role.

 

I personally don't know if I've seen enough to say he doesn't have the speed anymore to be effective or if it is more of a mental thing as of this point. Kind of like how fathom points out that part of his problems in defense seem to be his “timidness”. I don’t know the answer because I’m not around Pierre enough to see first-hand the difference in his actual skills (e.g., his practice, the time it takes him to get from 1st to 2nd, etc). The eye test isn’t pretty to date, but as I pointed out above, part of that could be due to practice or a slump. The longer it goes though, the more you think it isn’t a slump anymore.

I doubt his speed has suddenly vanished, but it doesn't have to. Even if he's just lost a "step", that makes a big difference by itself... then its compounded if he tries to make changes to adjust. That small decline in speed can have a pretty huge impact.

 

[fathom]

I doubt his speed has suddenly vanished, but it doesn't have to. Even if he's just lost a "step", that makes a big difference by itself... then its compounded if he tries to make changes to adjust. That small decline in speed can have a pretty huge impact.

 

Why's that hard to believe? He's played so hard and ran so often for quite a long time now (while rarely getting a rest, unless it was with the Dodgers). Also, in today's age of baseball, we have no way of knowing what the actual aging process for players is.

[Cali]

You guys know that in some bizarro world that of Pierre was cut, Ozzie would just move Lillibridge to left and have him start and lead-off and call up De Aza to be a 4th outfielder.

 

We'd STILL not get a chance to see Viciedo.

[NorthSideSox72]

Why's that hard to believe? He's played so hard and ran so often for quite a long time now (while rarely getting a rest, unless it was with the Dodgers). Also, in today's age of baseball, we have no way of knowing what the actual aging process for players is.

Its hard to believe because barring injury (which is possible here I suppose), people's speed doesn't fall off a cliff. It goes down gradually.

 

But as I pointed out, it doesn't need to fall of a cliff for his effectiveness to have a big drop.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

This has been Ozzie's best season as manager, imo.

 

I just choked on my New England clam chowder. You can't be serious.

[Chisoxfn]

Its hard to believe because barring injury (which is possible here I suppose), people's speed doesn't fall off a cliff. It goes down gradually.

 

But as I pointed out, it doesn't need to fall of a cliff for his effectiveness to have a big drop.

I agree that just a step could potentially impact his game significantly. But I also tend to think a step is actually a pretty good size change in speed. Which given his age wouldn't be a shock and if it is the case than if I were manager, once he had proven he couldn't handle that lost step, he'd get less playing time. The problem is, Ozzie is like many managers, in that he wants a protypical leadoff hitter, and outside of Pierre he doesn't have any other options, so there isn't a better alternative in his mind (and this would be true of a very significant amount of mgr's, including some of the best in the game, like a LaRussa).

[JohnCangelosi]

Its hard to believe because barring injury (which is possible here I suppose), people's speed doesn't fall off a cliff. It goes down gradually.

 

But as I pointed out, it doesn't need to fall of a cliff for his effectiveness to have a big drop.

The JP I've seen this year HAS without a doubt lost a step. There was a sacrifice bunt he laid down this year that I recall that was a good one, and normally would have been a VERY close play at 1st base. Instead he was out by a step and a half. This is just an example of him losing a step this year. To know that he's going to play everyday the rest of the way out is like living through the whole Kotsay debacle in 2010 for me. Mercy.

[Chisoxfn]

I just choked on my New England clam chowder. You can't be serious.

He's done a phenomenal job of not over-reacting like a bunch of nut jobs here and staying calm and as a result the players responded. Ozzie has a tremendous ability to try and put his players in the best chance to succeed. That might not be in-game managing but it is an art that he has managed exceptionally, well, imo. And I know someone will now make a bunch of posts about how Kotsay being DH was a position he couldn't excel at, but by and large, Ozzie has done that and you'll hear a lot of his current and former players allude to that.

 

Ozzie understands how up and down the game of baseball is and he isn't going to overreact to things too often. I have problems with some of his ridiculous comments and some of the things he does, but by and large, he's a good manager. The question to me is at some point, players tune guys out or maybe just need to hear another voice, and when that type comes, it comes. It will happen to pretty much every mgr and coach.