Juan Pierre

[Leonard Zelig]

You cannot lose a division by 1/2 game.

[jenksycat]

Just went back and watched the 9th again (like an asshole)...but Thornton was F'd as soon as he rolled that 0-2 slider over the middle of the plate. You could see it in his face. And if Ozzie really defends either Thornton or Pierre...he's an idiot.

 

Yeah he should criticize them in the media, that's what you like to see from a manager.

[Y2HH]

You cannot lose a division by 1/2 game.

 

That wasn't the point.

[Leonard Zelig]

That wasn't the point.

 

I know, I just really hope somebody steps up and shows they deserve the closer role. I don't care who it is.

[gatnom]

For those who think Thornton doesn't have the mentality to handle being the closer, how is he going to deal with being demoted? If you believe that being put in the closer's role can screw up a pitcher, I think we've pretty clearly passed the point of no return and should give the guy more than 3 appearances to prove himself, particularly when he's only given up 1 earned run. Telling a guy he isn't good enough is about the last thing I would want to do to get a guy back on track. Sure, eventually if he consistently blows saves, your hand will be forced, but I think we should try to show a little confidence in a guy who's been pretty damn good for us the past couple years.

 

 

 

 

[greg775]

People need to admit that Thornton has also had pretty bad luck in his first 2 outings.

 

Very very true, but a closer needs to strike out some people and be flat out DOMINANT at times.

Lots of bats hitting balls with Matt out there.

 

Somewhere, Bobby Jenks is laughing, not necessarily at Matt screwing up, I'm sure he likes him, but at the fact, the ninth inning is a different animal like Fathom and others have said.

I'd love to see a stat on how many batters Bobby struck out in most of his saves in a Sox uniform. Matt ain't whiffing enough people.

 

That said, his two blown saves are equally on Juan IMO. I mean WTF. Juan has to bail out Matt by catching the f***ing ball!?

 

 

(How's that for a disjoined post by me?)

 

[Milkman delivers]

Everything is considered an overreaction on Soxtalk. I don't know what it takes to consider something a reasonable reaction here. Thornton has blown three saves (every opportunity he's been given) and has looked terrible in each. I imagine for everyone to consider the idea of trying out another closer that Thornton would have to give up 4 consecutive homers in a 3-run save situation and then proceed to beat Konerko, Ozzie, and a handful of fans to death with a corked bat while funneling steroids and wiping his ass with the American flag.

[Milkman delivers]

For those who think Thornton doesn't have the mentality to handle being the closer, how is he going to deal with being demoted? If you believe that being put in the closer's role can screw up a pitcher, I think we've pretty clearly passed the point of no return and should give the guy more than 3 appearances to prove himself, particularly when he's only given up 1 earned run. Telling a guy he isn't good enough is about the last thing I would want to do to get a guy back on track. Sure, eventually if he consistently blows saves, your hand will be forced, but I think we should try to show a little confidence in a guy who's been pretty damn good for us the past couple years.

 

He's not a child, f*** his ego. We should keep him in his current job, which he's terrible at, because taking him out of the job he's terrible at might also cause him to be terrible at another job.

[gatnom]

He's not a child, f*** his ego. We should keep him in his current job, which he's terrible at, because taking him out of the job he's terrible at might also cause him to be terrible at another job.

 

That's perfectly fine, but don't give me some BS like we're ruining him purely by messing with his mind. If that were the case, he's already done for. And, I think he should be given another shot or two considering he's been our best reliever for a couple years now, a slightly larger sample size than three damn games.

 

 

[Milkman delivers]

That's perfectly fine, but don't give me some BS like we're ruining him purely by messing with his mind. If that were the case, he's already done for. And, I think he should be given another shot or two considering he's been our best reliever for a couple years now, a slightly larger sample size than three damn games.

 

I never made the argument about ruining him, although it does make sense. I personally don't give a f*** about Matt Thornton or any other individual player. If they are a detriment to the team, I want them moved. It's all about what the best move for the team is (same reason I was upset about Milledge being DFA'd, as I felt he was the best for the team).

[gatnom]

I never made the argument about ruining him, although it does make sense. I personally don't give a f*** about Matt Thornton or any other individual player. If they are a detriment to the team, I want them moved. It's all about what the best move for the team is (same reason I was upset about Milledge being DFA'd, as I felt he was the best for the team).

 

You responded to my post to those people. If you want to remove him from the closer's spot after three games, I can sort of understand after going through Jenks the past couple years, but people have this idea that Matt Thornton all of a sudden loses his talent in the 9th inning. Removing him from the 9th isn't going to make everything better with him; he's the same pitcher regardless of inning.

 

 

[Milkman delivers]

You responded to my post to those people. If you want to remove him from the closer's spot after three games, I can sort of understand after going through Jenks the past couple years, but people have this idea that Matt Thornton all of a sudden loses his talent in the 9th inning. Removing him from the 9th isn't going to make everything better with him; he's the same pitcher regardless of inning.

 

I understand your point. To me, it's not about putting Thornton in the best spot for him to succeed, it's about getting the best option at closer in there.

[gatnom]

I understand your point. To me, it's not about putting Thornton in the best spot for him to succeed, it's about getting the best option at closer in there.

 

I can see that. However, this bullpen is kind of screwed in my opinion if he can't at least be a shell of his former self, and I wonder if showing a lack of faith in him here could do more harm than good in the long run. For me, the best case scenario would be to not need a closer for a couple games and then to give Thornton one last chance at it, and hopefully he can pull his head out of his ass (or perhaps is arm...).

 

 

[Soxbadger]

I think the pen actually has a lot of talent, but you are always going to look bad when you cant count on the closer.

 

This season could have started a lot worse with Peavy on the DL and Dunn having surgery.

[justBLAZE]

Really feel bad for Juan Pierre, 2 E in last two seasons, now 2 in 4 games? He is a good defender. He got a lot o support after that game last night.

 

Everything has been said about Thornton already.

[TitoMB345]

"I missed the ball," Pierre said. "I appreciate [Guillen] saying it. I just flat out missed it. It basically cost us two games on the schedule so far."

 

Er, sorry, I thought this was a one page thread when I posted this.. I'm sure this has been posted already, but I'll leave it up just incase.

Edited April 12, 2011 by TitoMB

[qwerty]

This would have never happened if buehrle was allowed to finish the game. Buehrle was at 99 pitches and had only given up two hits in 8 innings of work. Last season buehrle threw 110 pitches or more 8 times.. in only one of those outings did he give up zero runs. In the other 7 outings of 110 pitches or more he gave up anywhere from 3-5 runs.

 

Where is the logic? This had a complete game written all over. Please no one say guillen was ''resting''' or ''saving'' buehrle for later in the season. Buehrle has a rubber arm... one inning is not changing anything either way. Four days prior to this game ozzie guillen let jackson throw 119 pitches in 8 innings. I realize the two games before that were back to back 12 inning games... but there would have still been a fresh arm or two.

 

My point is ozzie guillen sent jackson back out there when he was right around that 100 pitch mark... and had a 5 run lead. Jackson in no way needed to go back out there under those circumstances. Buehrle under his circumstances... 2 hits... 0 runs... 99 pitches and known for being able to throw a ton of pitches if need be? Yes, that would have made a ton more sense. Buehrle was on a rolem and the bullpen has been shaky, seemed like a no brainer to me.

 

In no way am i second guessing. This made no sense from the start to me. I'm sure someone touched on this at some point in the game thread.

[witesoxfan]

Tony Pena for closer!

[Paint it Black]

I was just as mad as you, being that Pierre has done this twice in the last few games...but that said, they were going to tie the game anyway...Thornton as closer is a failed experiment. IMO, that leadoff double was going to score to tie the game regardless of Pierre.

Lets go back to the Rays game on Friday which Thornton "blew the game." The big plays were: 1) the fly ball Pierre dropped. A lazy fly ball which the hitter was jammed on. 2) the easy ground ball to Alexei and he made the terrible throw 3) the Upton single, which was a jam shot down the line. 4)the homerun

 

My point is Thronton made his pitches up until the homerun...essentially FOUR OUTS LATER. If you want to blame him for having bad defense, then I can't really help you.

 

I was on the phone during last nights debockle (the girlfriend was a lot like Pierre last night, having a melt down) so I cannot speak to the quality of pitches Thronton threw.

[hawksfan61]

This would have never happened if buehrle was allowed to finish the game. Buehrle was at 99 pitches and had only given up two hits in 8 innings of work. Last season buehrle threw 110 pitches or more 8 times.. in only one of those outings did he give up zero runs. In the other 7 outings of 110 pitches or more he gave up anywhere from 3-5 runs.

 

Where is the logic? This had a complete game written all over. Please no one say guillen was ''resting''' or ''saving'' buehrle for later in the season. Buehrle has a rubber arm... one inning is not changing anything either way. Four days prior to this game ozzie guillen let jackson throw 119 pitches in 8 innings. I realize the two games before that were back to back 12 inning games... but there would have still been a fresh arm or two.

 

My point is ozzie guillen sent jackson back out there when he was right around that 100 pitch mark... and had a 5 run lead. Jackson in no way needed to go back out there under those circumstances. Buehrle under his circumstances... 2 hits... 0 runs... 99 pitches and known for being able to throw a ton of pitches if need be? Yes, that would have made a ton more sense. Buehrle was on a rolem and the bullpen has been shaky, seemed like a no brainer to me.

 

In no way am i second guessing. This made no sense from the start to me. I'm sure someone touched on this at some point in the game thread.

 

Totally agree, I asked myself when they showed Thornton on the mound what the hell he was doing out there when Buehrle was at 99 pitches, what was the logic? Mark didn't look tired, he could have easily finished the game. I had a sick feeling when Thornton took the mound that we were going to lose this game.

 

There is no logic behind it but some guys just cannot handle the closer's role and for whatever reason the 9th inning is a totally different animal, and Thornton looks mentally defeated right now. Pierre's Pods impression in the outfield isn't helping matters, but everything off of Thornton is a rocket right now. Get the guy out of there before he costs us anymore games. We could easily be 8-2 right now and every game will matter come September.

[NorthSideSox72]

Thornton worries me more than Pierre. He's been a decent defensive OF (minus the arm) his whole career, I don't think he permanently forgot how to catch a ball. He'll get his head in the right place and be fine.

 

But closing is, IMO, a very different game, mentally. And I am not sure if Matt has the right mindset, nor am I sure he can find it. Some pitchers just don't.

 

[Balta1701]

Thornton worries me more than Pierre. He's been a decent defensive OF (minus the arm) his whole career, I don't think he permanently forgot how to catch a ball. He'll get his head in the right place and be fine.

 

But closing is, IMO, a very different game, mentally. And I am not sure if Matt has the right mindset, nor am I sure he can find it. Some pitchers just don't.

I don't know about mindset, but Matt Thornton looks more hittable than he has at any point since 2006.

[Y2HH]

Lets go back to the Rays game on Friday which Thornton "blew the game." The big plays were: 1) the fly ball Pierre dropped. A lazy fly ball which the hitter was jammed on. 2) the easy ground ball to Alexei and he made the terrible throw 3) the Upton single, which was a jam shot down the line. 4)the homerun

 

My point is Thronton made his pitches up until the homerun...essentially FOUR OUTS LATER. If you want to blame him for having bad defense, then I can't really help you.

 

I was on the phone during last nights debockle (the girlfriend was a lot like Pierre last night, having a melt down) so I cannot speak to the quality of pitches Thronton threw.

 

Thornton has been getting hit, and hit hard. Warning track line drives, rocketballs like the one hit at Konerko last night. So far I've seen one hit off of him that wasn't hit hard, and it was the jam shot you're speaking of. He's clearly throwing batting practice right now, and other teams know it...

 

We all agree Thornton had bad defense behind him for those games, but a closer MUST be able to overcome things like giving the team an extra out...thus far, Thornton has had 2 opportunities to pitch over fielding errors and couldn't do it either time...he didn't even come close to doing it either time. He's looked TERRIBLE, and anyone that can't admit that he's looked terrible is just lying to themselves.

 

Yes, we get it, Pierre f***ed up.

 

Thornton, in the closer role, should be able to pitch over that. In previous years, he'd pitch over that more often than not, because he'd strike out 1 or 2 batters at a minimum, and make people look silly flailing at pitches they have no chance at hitting hard. As I said above, he's getting hit HARD and often.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Y2HH

[Y2HH]

Totally agree, I asked myself when they showed Thornton on the mound what the hell he was doing out there when Buehrle was at 99 pitches, what was the logic? Mark didn't look tired, he could have easily finished the game. I had a sick feeling when Thornton took the mound that we were going to lose this game.

 

There is no logic behind it but some guys just cannot handle the closer's role and for whatever reason the 9th inning is a totally different animal, and Thornton looks mentally defeated right now. Pierre's Pods impression in the outfield isn't helping matters, but everything off of Thornton is a rocket right now. Get the guy out of there before he costs us anymore games. We could easily be 8-2 right now and every game will matter come September.

 

The logic is, and was, exactly what the poster you responded too doesn't want to hear. Whether you two want to hear it or not, it is what it is. Ozzie made up his mind that he'd not overuse Buehrle this year, as Buehrle has been running out of gas mid earlier and earlier every year as the innings pile on. Furthermore, it's been said that even in games like this one, Buehrle would be removed...where a closer *should* be able to protect a 1 run lead over an anemic Oakland offense.

[Balta1701]

The logic is, and was, exactly what the poster you responded too doesn't want to hear. Whether you two want to hear it or not, it is what it is. Ozzie made up his mind that he'd not overuse Buehrle this year, as Buehrle has been running out of gas mid earlier and earlier every year as the innings pile on. Furthermore, it's been said that even in games like this one, Buehrle would be removed...where a closer *should* be able to protect a 1 run lead over an anemic Oakland offense.

Hell, add in the fact that Matt Thornton genuinely needs to work his way through whatever's going on with him, and pulling M-56 was clearly the right call.