Juan Pierre

[Chisoxfn]

He sucks. I don't care how nice or how much of an ass someone is...as long as they help the Sox win. Pierre's had an absolutely brutal season this year.

I'd rather have him in the lineup than Dunn or Rios right now.

[chw42]

Serious question: If JP were released today is there a team that would pick him off waivers? I doubt it. And here Ozzie is starting him, no less. His most valuable asset was always his speed and he covered a lot of ground in the outfield and got to balls others wouldn't, but even that seems to be gone. He doesn't get on base enough and he can't steal even when he does. What's the point?

 

No sane team would.

[chw42]

I'd rather have him in the lineup than Dunn or Rios right now.

 

Whatever happened to Pierre DHing? That might actually be a good thing for the team this year.

[Chisoxfn]

You guys are out of your mind if you don't think someone would pick up Juan Pierre if the Sox released him (no they wouldn't take on his contract, but they'd take him at the major league minimum). And no, he wouldn't need to go to the minors either.

 

And that isn't me defending Juan, it is more calling all of you out for making stupid reactionary statements.

[LittleHurt05]

No, no, no. No more singles only, sub-370 SLG% left-fielders on this team. I've had enough.. Pods worked out in '05. It's been a tsunami out there since.

 

- He is a center fielder and did win the last two Gold Gloves (which actually might mean something if you aren't a big hitter, are young, and are not on the Yankees)

 

- I do hear your point on the singles only guys, but if he still has the speed and can play D, I don't mind it as much.

[chw42]

You guys are out of your mind if you don't think someone would pick up Juan Pierre if the Sox released him (no they wouldn't take on his contract, but they'd take him at the major league minimum). And no, he wouldn't need to go to the minors either.

 

And that isn't me defending Juan, it is more calling all of you out for making stupid reactionary statements.

 

Which team would want a .260 hitting corner outfielder with a slugging percentage 30 points lower than his on base percentage who can't field, can't steal bases, and is in his mid-30s already?

 

No sane team would want him just for the hell of it, it'd be out of necessity, even if it's for the league minimum.

[Chicago White Sox]

Pods was the lionshare of scoring first in 50whatever games to start that year. He was a huge shot in the arm to get that season rolling early. I remember seeing our deviations for runs scored that year and was amazed at how small they were. We were much more consistent in scoring that year, and I think that really helps the pitching staff. Now we haven't seen that kind of a year from a leadoff hitter again (while Pods was healthy) but I get the idea of what that is supposed to do for an offense.

I understand the value of a good leadoff hitter. You pointed out one of the major perks, which is they can prevent some offensive deviations from game to game. Having said that, the key word here is good. Pierre is not good, and we kept throwing Pods out there after he stopped being good. When Guillen does this, he isn't managing to the team's strengths, but rather trying to fill a unneccesary need with a mediocre player. That's extremely stupid, especially when you have to play said player in LF and forego power.

[Jordan4life_2007]

- He is a center fielder and did win the last two Gold Gloves (which actually might mean something if you aren't a big hitter, are young, and are not on the Yankees)

 

- I do hear your point on the singles only guys, but if he still has the speed and can play D, I don't mind it as much.

 

Well I assume he would move to LF, as Rios seems pretty entrenched in CF. And Rios seems like the type of mental midget that would be bothered by the thought of having to play a position he's never played before. The only reason I even mentioned Bourn is because he's only got one more arb year left until he becomes a FA and I've heard the Astros wouldn't mind dealing him. You know Ozzie would be drooling at the thought of slappy 3.0. And KW would happily oblige him.

[chw42]

Well I assume he would move to LF, as Rios seems pretty entrenched in CF. And Rios seems like the type of mental midget that would be bothered by the thought of having to play a position he's never played before. The only reason I even mentioned Bourn is because he's only got one more arb year left until he becomes a FA and I've heard the Astros wouldn't mind dealing him. You know Ozzie would be drooling at the thought of slappy 3.0. And KW would happily oblige him.

 

Michael Bourn is a better version of Juan Pierre. Or at least Juan Pierre in his prime, who happened to be a pretty good player. Regardless of how slappy he was.

 

 

[Chisoxfn]

Which team would want a .260 hitting corner outfielder with a slugging percentage 30 points lower than his on base percentage who can't field, can't steal bases, and is in his mid-30s already?

 

No sane team would want him just for the hell of it, it'd be out of necessity, even if it's for the league minimum.

There are far worse role players out there. In the NL, I'd love to at worse, have a guy like Pierre on my bench. I cna pinch run for him and even if he isn't the same base stealer he once was, he's still an above average base runner that would be of great use in a late game situation. I could also use him as a pinch-hitter to start off an inning or as a pinch-bunter.

 

And I am hard pressed to think that in just one year his defense has completely regressed from being an above average LFer (which he was last year defensively) to utter crap defensively. In fact, while it might not have been a great play yesterday, I didn't have any problem with it and by and large his arm is what sucks about his defense. His range has been fine most of the year (sans his early hiccups). Has he been good in LF, no, he's been below average this season as a whole.

 

But people here love to overreact and talk in pure absolutes. And contrary to the statiticians opinion (IMO), there is value in a guy that can smack hits, even if it is just singles. Singles are still a valuable commodity in the world of baseball and you don't always have to slug. Do I want Pierre back as a starter, no. Would I prefer a different leadoff hitter, absolutely. However, Pierre was solid last year and people still acted like he was the worse left fielder in the game. I get it, a lot of you are going to hate to hate cause its the cool or fun thing to do, but lets not pretend like the Sox are the only team that would have Pierre on there roster and worse yet, that since no one else would pick him up, he's the worse position player in the majors. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Michael Bourn is a better version of Juan Pierre. Or at least Juan Pierre in his prime, who happened to be a pretty good player. Regardless of how slappy he was.

 

JP had a prime? I don't want any kind of incarnation of Juan Pierre. Young, old or inbetween young and old.

[chw42]

There are far worse role players out there. In the NL, I'd love to at worse, have a guy like Pierre on my bench. I cna pinch run for him and even if he isn't the same base stealer he once was, he's still an above average base runner that would be of great use in a late game situation. I could also use him as a pinch-hitter to start off an inning or as a pinch-bunter.

 

And I am hard pressed to think that in just one year his defense has completely regressed from being an above average LFer (which he was last year defensively) to utter crap defensively. In fact, while it might not have been a great play yesterday, I didn't have any problem with it and by and large his arm is what sucks about his defense. His range has been fine most of the year (sans his early hiccups).

 

But people here love to overreact and talk in pure absolutes. And contrary to the statiticians below (IMO), there is value in a guy that can smack hits, even if it is just singles. Singles are still a valuable commodity in the world and you don't always have to slug. Do I want Pierre back as a starter, would I prefer a different leadoff hitter, absolutely, but Pierre was solid last year and people still acted like he was the worse left fielder in the game. I get it, a lot of you are going to hate to hate cause its the cool or fun thing to do, but lets not pretend like the Sox are the only team that would have Pierre on there roster and worse yet, that since no one else would pick him up, he's the worse position player in the majors. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

 

I thought Pierre was fine last year. He provided defense, good base running, and an okay OBP for a leadoff hitter. But this year is a completely different story. He's costing the team on defense (by almost all statistical measures and by the screw-ups everyone has seen), he's incredibly inefficient on the base paths, and his hitting is what I expected it to be. If you add all of those things up, it equals negative contribution. When you have Viciedo mashing in the minors and Brent Lillibridge hitting like Jose Bautista every now and then, there's no reason for Pierre to touch the starting lineup.

 

I know it is hard to believe that a player can regress as much as Pierre has at base running and fielding in just one year, but it's not totally abnormal for guys like him to regress heavily. He's actually made it pretty far for a guy who relies on speed and speed alone.

Edited June 9, 2011 by chw42

[chw42]

JP had a prime? I don't want any kind of incarnation of Juan Pierre. Young, old or inbetween young and old.

 

Juan Pierre was a 4-5 WAR player in Florida. Mostly because he played CF and was good at it. But I think he had one season where he hit .330 and actually had a slugging percentage above .400.

[LittleHurt05]

Well I assume he would move to LF, as Rios seems pretty entrenched in CF. And Rios seems like the type of mental midget that would be bothered by the thought of having to play a position he's never played before. The only reason I even mentioned Bourn is because he's only got one more arb year left until he becomes a FA and I've heard the Astros wouldn't mind dealing him. You know Ozzie would be drooling at the thought of slappy 3.0. And KW would happily oblige him.

 

That 2nd sentence needs to be posted in the "Alex Rios Sucks" thread. Moving Bourn to LF would make him less appealing too.

 

I would be worried about what kind of contract they would offer him, because he could lose value quick. Either way, as a Boras client, it's probably something you wouldn't have to worry about.

[LittleHurt05]

Juan Pierre was a 4-5 WAR player in Florida. Mostly because he played CF and was good at it. But I think he had one season where he hit .330 and actually had a slugging percentage above .400.

 

he actually finished 10th in MVP voting in 2003, 16th in 2004.

[iamshack]

These softball questions the reporters ask Ozzie are a joke. Someone has to be a MAN, step up, and call him out on this ridiculous decision to march JP out there everyday at the top of the order and call it what it is and point out how many baseball games this worthless joke of a left fielder has cost us. "There's nothing we can do about it?" Yes there is. DFA him.

 

To me this is almost worse than the Kotsay situation of 2010, which I didn't think I'd see again. Both Ozzie and Kenny need to be fired if they cannot see how glaring of a problem this is.

I'm honestly not sure that our media knows any better...they aren't exactly the most baseball-savvy bunch.

[southsider2k5]

I'm honestly not sure that our media knows any better...they aren't exactly the most baseball-savvy bunch.

 

Eh, more than anything they lack testicular fortitude. The only ones who will ask tough questions, are afraid to go into the lockerroom and do it. They are much tougher behind a microphone or keyboard.

[soxsider11]

Well I assume he would move to LF, as Rios seems pretty entrenched in CF. And Rios seems like the type of mental midget that would be bothered by the thought of having to play a position he's never played before. The only reason I even mentioned Bourn is because he's only got one more arb year left until he becomes a FA and I've heard the Astros wouldn't mind dealing him. You know Ozzie would be drooling at the thought of slappy 3.0. And KW would happily oblige him.

Didn't Rios play lf in toronto with wells in center?

[kapzk]

Didn't Rios play lf in toronto with wells in center?

 

He played RF and was quite good and was able to hit.

[Balta1701]

And I am hard pressed to think that in just one year his defense has completely regressed from being an above average LFer (which he was last year defensively) to utter crap defensively. In fact, while it might not have been a great play yesterday, I didn't have any problem with it and by and large his arm is what sucks about his defense. His range has been fine most of the year (sans his early hiccups). Has he been good in LF, no, he's been below average this season as a whole.

This is where I've got to disagree with you Jas. You may be hard pressed to believe that in one year Juan Pierre's defense has completely fallen off the table, but it has. He had a couple week stretch where he didn't cost us a game in May, but even when that was going on there were several misplayed/adventures out there where he barely recovered on balls that last year's Pierre would have gotten to easily. 2010 Pierre would have made last night's catch while pulling up at the end, with room to spare.

 

He's playing like 2006 Podsednik out there. He is getting poor jumps, taking bad routes to balls, and when he's close to a difficult catch it bounces off his glove.

[soxsider11]

Yea thats right i thought he played both but was wrong

[JohnCangelosi]

There are far worse role players out there. In the NL, I'd love to at worse, have a guy like Pierre on my bench. I cna pinch run for him and even if he isn't the same base stealer he once was, he's still an above average base runner that would be of great use in a late game situation. I could also use him as a pinch-hitter to start off an inning or as a pinch-bunter.

 

And I am hard pressed to think that in just one year his defense has completely regressed from being an above average LFer (which he was last year defensively) to utter crap defensively. In fact, while it might not have been a great play yesterday, I didn't have any problem with it and by and large his arm is what sucks about his defense. His range has been fine most of the year (sans his early hiccups). Has he been good in LF, no, he's been below average this season as a whole.

 

But people here love to overreact and talk in pure absolutes. And contrary to the statiticians opinion (IMO), there is value in a guy that can smack hits, even if it is just singles. Singles are still a valuable commodity in the world of baseball and you don't always have to slug. Do I want Pierre back as a starter, no. Would I prefer a different leadoff hitter, absolutely. However, Pierre was solid last year and people still acted like he was the worse left fielder in the game. I get it, a lot of you are going to hate to hate cause its the cool or fun thing to do, but lets not pretend like the Sox are the only team that would have Pierre on there roster and worse yet, that since no one else would pick him up, he's the worse position player in the majors. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

The only skill I see in JP right now is the ability to lay down a bunt and run the bases with above average speed (sans stealing bases of course). If that's worth a spot on a roster somewhere, I'd be surprised. If he could steal bases, then he'd be a decent pinch runner that you could march out there every once in a while. Other than that I see absolutely no redeeming qualities in his game, and I wish he was DFA'd. We'd immediately be a much better team overall with Dayan taking his place.

[kapzk]

Wats the difference between Bourn and Pierre? Well possibly Bourn is a better fielder cuz Pierre totally lost it this yr on D and so far has far more SB than JP. But asides from that both are pretty s***ty hitters and Bourn strikes out around 100 more times than Pierre.

[Chisoxfn]

I thought Pierre was fine last year. He provided defense, good base running, and an okay OBP for a leadoff hitter. But this year is a completely different story. He's costing the team on defense (by almost all statistical measures and by the screw-ups everyone has seen), he's incredibly inefficient on the base paths, and his hitting is what I expected it to be. If you add all of those things up, it equals negative contribution. When you have Viciedo mashing in the minors and Brent Lillibridge hitting like Jose Bautista every now and then, there's no reason for Pierre to touch the starting lineup.

 

I know it is hard to believe that a player can regress as much as Pierre has at base running and fielding in just one year, but it's not totally abnormal for guys like him to regress heavily. He's actually made it pretty far for a guy who relies on speed and speed alone.

What about when you have Dunn hitting like garbage or Rios being worthless. Pierre has at least hit and done a decent job of that over the past month and defensively outside of maybe yesterday's play (which wasn't near the gaffe that some of you make it out to be, imo), he's been improved. He was really bad that first month of the seaosn, but since than he's been better. Still, his lack of efficient base-stealing is costly and it is why I would prefer a better alternative and I honestly think I would have Lillibridge leading off for this club right now. However, that is a big risk. Maybe we put too much pressure on Lilli and he regresses and we lose out on what could be a guy turning into a solid everyday player (who is playing some insanely awesome defense).

[kapzk]

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=15272455

 

the most hilarious attempt to catch a ball