Why Did We Pull MB last night?

[JohnCangelosi]

I'm sorry if this has been covered in another thread but I haven't seen it on the website or postgame coverage, but why did Ozzie pull MB last night? Did MB ask to be taken out or was this yet another bone headed decision by arguably the worst tactical manager in baseball?

 

Usually Oz will leave our starters in a bit too long, so I am HOPING that MB asked to be taken out. But with the way he was dealing last night, how could you ever pull him out at that point unless he asked for it?

[Y2HH]

I'm sorry if this has been covered in another thread but I haven't seen it on the website or postgame coverage, but why did Ozzie pull MB last night? Did MB ask to be taken out or was this yet another bone headed decision by arguably the worst tactical manager in baseball?

 

Usually Oz will leave our starters in a bit too long, so I am HOPING that MB asked to be taken out. But with the way he was dealing last night, how could you ever pull him out at that point unless he asked for it?

 

Decision was made in the off season that MB would be under lower pitch counts than in years past, even if he's coasting after 95+ pitches/8 innings. As the innings continue to pile on over the years, Buehrle's running out of gas earlier and earlier in the season...and if this team is going to contend in the playoffs, or even get into the playoffs, we need Buehrle to have some gas left during the stretch run.

 

Call me crazy, but despite Buehrle coasting, a closer should be able to close out a 1-0 game against one of the worst offenses in the game. If we can't trust Thornton now, we can't trust him later while he "works out his problems" and games become increasingly important. Which also leads me to this: Everyone here just assumes he will work out his problems based on previous seasons. However, this isn't previous seasons...it's 2011. We may have to consider that Thornton won't come out of this, especially when placed in closer situations game after game.

 

Also, it's funny to listen to Sox fans talk about how Ozzie is such a bad tactical manager. I've heard, on repeated occasions, from other teams fans and announcers and radio personalities that they'd LOVE to have Ozzie as their teams manager. While I understand many here at Soxtalk would love to see him fired, the fact is he'd have another managerial job with another major league team tomorrow.

[southsider2k5]

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2011/04...hind-plate.html

 

Buehrle said he didn't object to coming out despite his performance. His pitch count was 99, 14 more than his previous high. Guillen said he has to "take care of Buehrle" and not over-use the veteran, especially early in the season.

 

To me that is the important part.

[fathom]

Also, it's funny to listen to Sox fans talk about how Ozzie is such a bad tactical manager. I've heard, on repeated occasions, from other teams fans and announcers and radio personalities that they'd LOVE to have Ozzie as their teams manager. While I understand many here at Soxtalk would love to see him fired, the fact is he'd have another managerial job with another major league team tomorrow.

 

It's because they think his personality would jump start their team.

[JohnCangelosi]

It's because they think his personality would jump start their team.

Yes, that's exactly why. Once they see his ridiculous decision making during games they'd feel different. It's too bad really, because I actually like Ozzie but just wish he had a good bench coach that would make the decisions for him or at least keep him in check...

[southsider2k5]

In all seriousness, you can't tell me that 29 other teams in MLB don't know what the fans here supposedly know about Ozzie as a manager. The Florida Marlins wouldn't have been chasing that hard after a guy under contract if he was that big of an idiot tactician.

[Y2HH]

In all seriousness, you can't tell me that 29 other teams in MLB don't know what the fans here supposedly know about Ozzie as a manager. The Florida Marlins wouldn't have been chasing that hard after a guy under contract if he was that big of an idiot tactician.

 

My point exactly.

 

When Ozzie makes a tactical decision and the player in question botches the opportunity, such as a failed bunt, a failed hit and run, etc., he's blamed as a terrible baseball tactician. And this is precisely what happens. When he puts in a pitcher and trusts that pitcher to be able to get an out, and they fail, again, Ozzie is blamed for making terrible decisions.

 

His decisions wouldn't look so bad if our team could get down a simple bunt instead of stabbing at the ball and popping into a triple play.

 

Don't get me wrong, I sometimes question his decisions, too...that's what we as fans tend to do. But if he was truly as terrible as some here at Soxtalk say, he wouldn't be a major league manager, let alone a manager other teams would love to have (and will hire if/when he leaves the Sox).

[southsider2k5]

My point exactly.

 

When Ozzie makes a tactical decision and the player in question botches the opportunity, such as a failed bunt, a failed hit and run, etc., he's blamed as a terrible baseball tactician. And this is precisely what happens. When he puts in a pitcher and trusts that pitcher to be able to get an out, and they fail, again, Ozzie is blamed for making terrible decisions.

 

His decisions wouldn't look so bad if our team could get down a simple bunt instead of stabbing at the ball and popping into a triple play.

 

Don't get me wrong, I sometimes question his decisions, too...that's what we as fans tend to do. But if he was truly as terrible as some here at Soxtalk say, he wouldn't be a major league manager, let alone a manager other teams would love to have (and will hire if/when he leaves the Sox).

 

My point is that if were really that much worse than he peers, everyone else would be talking about it and know about it. If he were THAT bad, no one would want to hire him, let alone hire him away from the Sox.

[ptatc]

Yes, that's exactly why. Once they see his ridiculous decision making during games they'd feel different. It's too bad really, because I actually like Ozzie but just wish he had a good bench coach that would make the decisions for him or at least keep him in check...

 

I think the big problem most posters have with Ozzie is that he think long term benefit for the season not short term for each game. A couple of examples:

 

With last nights decision is he is more concerned with MB being strong for the whole season and into the playoffs than continuing in the game.

 

Ozzie will put inexperienced relivers in important pressure situations to see how they handle the pressure. He does this to see if they can handle it later on.

 

He rests his regulars more than most managers early in the season so they are stronger later in the season.

 

All of the decision may cost individual games but may win some later on and help the team in the playoffs. There is no right or wrong just a difference in philosophy. I see both sides but lean toward the team being stronger later on. I have this discussion with one of my friends constantly because he likes the other side and thinks an awful manager because he "throws" too many games.

[103 mph screwball]

Also, it's funny to listen to Sox fans talk about how Ozzie is such a bad tactical manager. I've heard, on repeated occasions, from other teams fans and announcers and radio personalities that they'd LOVE to have Ozzie as their teams manager. While I understand many here at Soxtalk would love to see him fired, the fact is he'd have another managerial job with another major league team tomorrow.

 

Some tactics seem like such an obviously bad idea. 2nd inning against Braden, Konerko walks on 6 pitches and then TCQ works a full count. Great! Even if we don't score, let's tire out Braden since apparently he has a supernatural changeup. Why the heck do you send Konerko for a certain caught stealing? The only thing I can think of is to hopefully get him to third on a Quentin single. It certainly wouldn't stop a double play and would be more likely to cause one on a line out. Konerko is a dead duck and he shouldn't have bothered sliding since it was not even close. Braden can go back to the windup and faces the minimum that inning. Come on Ozzie! Sometimes the gamble is not worth it. I can deal with Pierre and Rios running into an occasional out, but I'm sick of giving away base runners. Ozzie doesn't think I know the game well enough to have an opinion, but I thought it would be funny to talk about Ozzie as such a bad tactical manager. Crap like that bothers me more than Pierre missing a fly ball. Hopefully the Sox can bounce back the way have earlier this year after tough losses. My apologies to Ozzie if Konerko was stealing on his own or forgot how many outs there were after leading off the inning.

[Y2HH]

Some tactics seem like such an obviously bad idea. 2nd inning against Braden, Konerko walks on 6 pitches and then TCQ works a full count. Great! Even if we don't score, let's tire out Braden since apparently he has a supernatural changeup. Why the heck do you send Konerko for a certain caught stealing? The only thing I can think of is to hopefully get him to third on a Quentin single. It certainly wouldn't stop a double play and would be more likely to cause one on a line out. Konerko is a dead duck and he shouldn't have bothered sliding since it was not even close. Braden can go back to the windup and faces the minimum that inning. Come on Ozzie! Sometimes the gamble is not worth it. I can deal with Pierre and Rios running into an occasional out, but I'm sick of giving away base runners. Ozzie doesn't think I know the game well enough to have an opinion, but I thought it would be funny to talk about Ozzie as such a bad tactical manager. Crap like that bothers me more than Pierre missing a fly ball. Hopefully the Sox can bounce back the way have earlier this year after tough losses. My apologies to Ozzie if Konerko was stealing on his own or forgot how many outs there were after leading off the inning.

 

I highly doubt Ozzie gave Konerko an explicit steal sign, if anything that was a hit and run, or Konerko misread something,

 

I don't believe Ozzie would EVER send Konerko on a straight up steal...ever.

[103 mph screwball]

I highly doubt Ozzie gave Konerko an explicit steal sign, if anything that was a hit and run, or Konerko misread something,

 

I don't believe Ozzie would EVER send Konerko on a straight up steal...ever.

 

You are right. I do not think it was a straight steal either. It was a hit and run. It still ended up to be a caught stealing that gave Braden a gift out. The benefits did not outweigh the risks of a hit and run. Ozzie himself could not convince me otherwise.

[southsider2k5]

I highly doubt Ozzie gave Konerko an explicit steal sign, if anything that was a hit and run, or Konerko misread something,

 

I don't believe Ozzie would EVER send Konerko on a straight up steal...ever.

 

Never. It was a hit and run to stay out of the DP.

[103 mph screwball]

Never. It was a hit and run to stay out of the DP.

 

On a ground ball, it may have moved a fielder out of position a led to a hit and prevented a double play. However, I think it is more likely that it could cause the double play.

1. It could move the fielder to where the ball may have been hit to and Konerko would still not beat a throw.

2. A line drive and Paully is dead meat.

3. TCQ strikes out and Paully is out by a mile.

 

Do hit and run with guys who actually have a prayer of making second even if there is a strike out and don't do it while Braden's control was inflating his pitch count.

[MexSoxFan#1]

Also, it's funny to listen to Sox fans talk about how Ozzie is such a bad tactical manager. I've heard, on repeated occasions, from other teams fans and announcers and radio personalities that they'd LOVE to have Ozzie as their teams manager. While I understand many here at Soxtalk would love to see him fired, the fact is he'd have another managerial job with another major league team tomorrow.

 

 

 

I've been on Twins forums and there are a lot of Twin fans who think Gardy is a moron...lots of ST posters here would love Gardenhire as the Sox manager.

Edited April 12, 2011 by MexSoxFan#1

[southsider2k5]

Also, it's funny to listen to Sox fans talk about how Ozzie is such a bad tactical manager. I've heard, on repeated occasions, from other teams fans and announcers and radio personalities that they'd LOVE to have Ozzie as their teams manager. While I understand many here at Soxtalk would love to see him fired, the fact is he'd have another managerial job with another major league team tomorrow.

 

 

 

I've been on Twins forums and there are a lot of Twin fans who think Gardy is a moron...lots of ST posters here would love Gardenhire as the Sox manager.

 

I have yet to see a fanbase that wasn't smarter than their manager...

[MexSoxFan#1]

I have yet to see a fanbase that wasn't smarter than their manager...

This

[ptatc]

On a ground ball, it may have moved a fielder out of position a led to a hit and prevented a double play. However, I think it is more likely that it could cause the double play.

1. It could move the fielder to where the ball may have been hit to and Konerko would still not beat a throw.

2. A line drive and Paully is dead meat.

3. TCQ strikes out and Paully is out by a mile.

 

Do hit and run with guys who actually have a prayer of making second even if there is a strike out and don't do it while Braden's control was inflating his pitch count.

 

I would go with the opposite. I send the slow runner to give him a chance to get there on a ground ball. He has a better chance to break it up if he has a head start. He is never going to beat out a throw on a ground ball. Especially with a hot hitter like TCQ who isn't striking out alot.

 

A line drive and anyones is dead. This is the true gamble in the situation

[LittleHurt05]

I have yet to see a fanbase that wasn't smarter than their manager...

 

Expect for the Bears fanbase & coach Ditka. He's smarter than everyone else combined.

[Y2HH]

Expect for the Bears fanbase & coach Ditka. He's smarter than everyone else combined.

 

Great White Sharks are smarter than the typical Bears fan, for that matter, so were T-Rex's and all other varieties of Dinosaur. Present company (Soxtalk.com Bears fans) excepted.

[JohnCangelosi]

Guys, I will go back to ONE OBVIOUS case that just proves the ineptness of Ozzie and his decision making.

 

Remember when we blew a 5-1 lead against the Cubs at Wrigley with Liney on the hill? D Lee hit a 3 run shot off him to make it 5-4 with 2 outs in the 8th I believe it was. I think 99% of us would have pulled Liney at that point.

 

Not Ozzie.

 

And the next batter hit a home run, tied, the game, and we eventually lost. I remember screaming at the TV during that game before the game tying homer at Ozzie to get Liney out of there. He should have been fired for that decision, really. It was such an easy call, but he can't get it right. As Fathom pointed out in that game, you bring in MT in the 8th and Bobby in the 9th and if they get 4 runs tip their cap to them. It's our arch rival and Guillen is clueless.

 

Put simply, Ozzie routinely makes the wrong decision in when to leave in a pitcher and when to pull him. And I am NOT talking about after the fact. I am talking before it happens, we are screaming about it, and sure enough, his decisions cost us games.

 

Last night was pathetic. Anyone else but MT in that situation. Really, he has not been himself in the closer slot. Are we blind or are we just going to ignore this and keep losing games over this? When we're chasing the Twins by 2 games in August you may remember these s***ty decisions. People just don't want to admit it here. You guys were hard on Bobby when he closed 41 out of 45 games. HA! Try 0 for 3 for Matt.

 

Bottom line is the Twins never lose a game like we did last night all year long, most likely, and if you guys want to excuse Ozzie be my guest but as for me, I am going to call a spade a spade.

[Y2HH]

Guys, I will go back to ONE OBVIOUS case that just proves the ineptness of Ozzie and his decision making.

 

Remember when we blew a 5-1 lead against the Cubs at Wrigley with Liney on the hill? D Lee hit a 3 run shot off him to make it 5-4 with 2 outs in the 8th I believe it was. I think 99% of us would have pulled Liney at that point.

 

Not Ozzie.

 

And the next batter hit a home run, tied, the game, and we eventually lost. I remember screaming at the TV during that game before the game tying homer at Ozzie to get Liney out of there. He should have been fired for that decision, really. It was such an easy call, but he can't get it right. As Fathom pointed out in that game, you bring in MT in the 8th and Bobby in the 9th and if they get 4 runs tip their cap to them. It's our arch rival and Guillen is clueless.

 

Put simply, Ozzie routinely makes the wrong decision in when to leave in a pitcher and when to pull him. And I am NOT talking about after the fact. I am talking before it happens, we are screaming about it, and sure enough, his decisions cost us games.

 

Last night was pathetic. Anyone else but MT in that situation. Really, he has not been himself in the closer slot. Are we blind or are we just going to ignore this and keep losing games over this? When we're chasing the Twins by 2 games in August you may remember these s***ty decisions. People just don't want to admit it here. You guys were hard on Bobby when he closed 41 out of 45 games. HA! Try 0 for 3 for Matt.

 

Bottom line is the Twins never lose a game like we did last night all year long, most likely, and if you guys want to excuse Ozzie be my guest but as for me, I am going to call a spade a spade.

 

The decision making on pulling pitchers/not pulling pitchers is easy in hindsight, meaning, it's easy for you as a fan to judge it after the fact.

 

If Ozzie had pulled Linebrink in that game, when all he needed was 1 more out, and his replacement lost the game anyway, everyone here would be crowing about how the odds of Linebrink giving up another run after the 3 run homer were almost zero, and he should have just been left in at that point. Again, in hindsight, you judge him about his decisions based on whether they work or not.

 

For every situation you bring up where a decision Ozzie made was bad, one can be brought up where it was good...if not more.

 

Example, putting Crain in the other day in what turned into a brilliant inning that had people on Soxtalk screaming, "Welcome ot the South Side, Crain!"...just days after Crain totally sucked it up. If Crain had screwed the pooch that inning, you'd be here saying how stupid Ozzie was putting Crain in that situation a day after he failed miserably.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Y2HH

[qwerty]

Nearly all of the league ''runs out of gas'' and pitches a bit worse in the second half. This has been like this since the game of baseball was created. It's a natural occurrence, and makes a ton of sense. The same most definitely applies to the nba. Those legs get tired after that long hall... especially if they are playing summer ball when the season ends. Numbers tend to have a slight downward trend in the second half... not for all of course... but for a good amount.

 

So ozzie would get hired by another team once his tenure with the sox is over? Of course he will. This is how the mlb, nba, and nfl work... it's like a rotating door of the same managers/coaches... with a couple new ones sprinkled in every year/other year. Rarely do you see a one and done type manager/coach. So let's not pretend like ozzie guillen is in some sort of special class. Worse managers they ozzie gullien have managed several teams... it's just how it works.

[southsider2k5]

Guys, I will go back to ONE OBVIOUS case that just proves the ineptness of Ozzie and his decision making.

 

Remember when we blew a 5-1 lead against the Cubs at Wrigley with Liney on the hill? D Lee hit a 3 run shot off him to make it 5-4 with 2 outs in the 8th I believe it was. I think 99% of us would have pulled Liney at that point.

 

Not Ozzie.

 

And the next batter hit a home run, tied, the game, and we eventually lost. I remember screaming at the TV during that game before the game tying homer at Ozzie to get Liney out of there. He should have been fired for that decision, really. It was such an easy call, but he can't get it right. As Fathom pointed out in that game, you bring in MT in the 8th and Bobby in the 9th and if they get 4 runs tip their cap to them. It's our arch rival and Guillen is clueless.

 

Put simply, Ozzie routinely makes the wrong decision in when to leave in a pitcher and when to pull him. And I am NOT talking about after the fact. I am talking before it happens, we are screaming about it, and sure enough, his decisions cost us games.

 

Last night was pathetic. Anyone else but MT in that situation. Really, he has not been himself in the closer slot. Are we blind or are we just going to ignore this and keep losing games over this? When we're chasing the Twins by 2 games in August you may remember these s***ty decisions. People just don't want to admit it here. You guys were hard on Bobby when he closed 41 out of 45 games. HA! Try 0 for 3 for Matt.

 

Bottom line is the Twins never lose a game like we did last night all year long, most likely, and if you guys want to excuse Ozzie be my guest but as for me, I am going to call a spade a spade.

 

BS. EVERYONE loses games like that over the course of a 162, even his highness, Ron Gardenhire.

[The Ginger Kid]

Ozzie's no miracle worker, but you're full of s*** if you blame him him for Juan Pierre dropping a fly ball or Matt Thornton leaving a slider over the fat part of the plate. Pierre made 2 errors all of last season...did you seriously see him making 2 in 4 games?