Why Did We Pull MB last night?

[Milkman delivers]

You'll never convince me that Ozzie is a good in-game manager. He's a good players manager, but his in-game decisions are bad. Despite that, I completely understand and agree with the decision to remove Buehrle last night in favor of Thornton. It's necessary to limit MB's pitches and we needed to see if Thornton had it in him to close. Now he's proven that he cannot and he shouldn't be trusted in that scenario anymore. We just have to hope that Ozzie also realizes this.

[Y2HH]

You'll never convince me that Ozzie is a good in-game manager. He's a good players manager, but his in-game decisions are bad. Despite that, I completely understand and agree with the decision to remove Buehrle last night in favor of Thornton. It's necessary to limit MB's pitches and we needed to see if Thornton had it in him to close. Now he's proven that he cannot and he shouldn't be trusted in that scenario anymore. We just have to hope that Ozzie also realizes this.

 

I can't convince you that Mr. Perfect is dead, when he is...so I wouldn't bother trying to convince you Ozzie is a good in game manager. You've already shown that you ignore reality.

[Iwritecode]

I can't convince you that Mr. Perfect is dead, when he is

 

Really?

 

I've read the Mr. Perfect jokes on here before but is this really the case?

 

[Y2HH]

Really?

 

I've read the Mr. Perfect jokes on here before but is this really the case?

 

Yes, that's really the case. Miss Elizabeth, Ravishing Rick Rude, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Davey Boy Smith, Big Boss Man, Mike Awesome, The Earthquake, Bam Bam Bigelow. All dead. And that's just a short list.

[Milkman delivers]

Really?

 

I've read the Mr. Perfect jokes on here before but is this really the case?

 

I DO know he's dead, if that's what you're asking. It's an inside joke.

[LittleHurt05]

Bottom line is the Twins never lose a game like we did last night all year long, most likely, and if you guys want to excuse Ozzie be my guest but as for me, I am going to call a spade a spade.

 

A sentence like that makes it hard to take the rest of your post seriously. No team goes 162 games without a blown save from the closer, without a mistake late in the game. Even your beloved Twins or your beloved Bobby Jenks.

Edited April 12, 2011 by LittleHurt05

[elrockinMT]

Mark Buerhle got puled after throwing 99 pitches in a super outing through 8 innings. Ozzie said he wanted to protect Mark, and I would guess our other starters too by not extending them too much this early. Right or wrong that's the reason. It would have been a different story if the bullpen did its job and Juan Pierre caught the flyball for an out. Next time around it might work out. Right now because it has happened twice in a short span of time it's hard to swallow.

Edited April 12, 2011 by elrockinMT

[scenario]

Bottom line is the Twins never lose a game like we did last night all year long, most likely, and if you guys want to excuse Ozzie be my guest but as for me, I am going to call a spade a spade.

 

Spend some time on Twins boards.... I think you'll find it "enlightening".

 

Gardenhire gets the same type of respect there that Ozzie gets here.

 

 

[cws0591]

Some of the things people say on this board make me wonder how I even built up the tolerance to come on daily.....

Edited April 12, 2011 by cws0591

[southsider2k5]

Spend some time on Twins boards.... I think you'll find it "enlightening".

 

Gardenhire gets the same type of respect there that Ozzie gets here.

 

Tell me if any of this sound familiar... and completely aside from that, the article, while from last year, is very good.

 

http://joeposnanski.si.com/2010/09/17/my-a...rant/?eref=sihp

 

OK, so, it’s happening again … every year I feel more and more certain that there has to be something I’m missing. I had a long talk with someone close to the Minnesota Twins … this someone is the latest in a long series of people who want me to understand just how wrong I am about Ron Gardenhire.

 

A little history: In 2008, I wrote a series of columns stating what I believe — that Ron Gardenhire is the best manager in baseball. This led more than a few people to believe that I was completely off my rocker and many of those people were Minnesota Twins fans who watched the man manage every single day and, as such, could recite hundreds and hundreds of reasons why Gardenhire was, in fact, a dreadful manager.

 

That’s a wide gap — best in the game (me) to dreadful (most of the people writing in). The 2008 Twins, despite hitting the fewest home runs in the league (and having the 10th best slugging percentage) and having a mediocre pitching staff somehow won 88 games and forced a one-game playoff with Chicago, which they lost 1-0. I thought it was another pretty impressive managerial run for a guy who had led his Twins to the playoffs in four of his first six years as manager. Others thought it was another lousy managing job.

 

And … the anti-Gardy crowd was overpowering. They bludgeoned me with stories of crazy lineup moves and bizarre bullpen maneuvers and folksy Gardy quotes that suggested he was at least Cardinal in the Roman Church of Grit. OK, I conceded the points, at least somewhat. I conceded that if Gardy was my team’s manager and I had to watch him every day, that I might not be the world’s No. 1 Gardy fan … but I don’t watch him every day, and I am the world’s No. 1 Gardy fan, and I still didn’t get why people did not give Gardy more credit for the Twins’ success.

[flippedoutpunk]

Worse managers they ozzie gullien have managed several teams... it's just how it works.

 

Manny Acta?

[cws0591]

to quote one of the score folk I hate most Terry Boers' old adage "some people are just baseball stupid" is completely and utterly correct....

[flavum]

If Ozzie was managing to win, he would have let Buehrle finish it. If the Sox were 3-6, perhaps he would have let Buehrle finish it. With a 6-3 record, his mindset was to use his closer and hopefully build confidence in him.

 

Now, I don't agree with this mindset. I think Buehrle should have finished what he started in a 1-0 game that he was dominating.

 

The proof will be in the pudding come late September. If they come up short, then Kenny and Ozzie have to go. I'll say that right now. "All-in" means you have to leave the table if you lose your chips.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Ozzie was a great "in-game/tactical" manager in 2005 and somehow he's lost it now?

 

That team only blew 2 leads in the 9th inning in the ENTIRE first half of the season...heck, it might have been even longer, I didn't research the second half.

 

But the point is that Ozzie HAS TO TRUST the guys on his roster. We all know the shape of our minor league system and the lack of depth down there. He basically said as much, that he had to put Ohman back out there in a one run game (when logic would have dictated Sale or maybe Santos) because the manager and team have to believe that guy will be able to "man up" and get the job done, throw strikes, get ahead in counts, etc.

 

If Ohman would have blown that one run lead, this message board would have EXPLODED, almost!!!

 

As Thornton said, Juan Pierre is one of the most hard-working, professional players in all of MLB. It's not like he INTENDED to make those mistakes. Pierre and the entire team know how Thornton will end up getting grilled more than they will...the casual baseball observer merely sees THREE blown saves when they look at his stat line.

 

Are we a 10-0 team? Obviously not, because we had that miracle comeback against Soria, things always tend to balance out over 162 games. The Indians aren't going to continue to play like the 2005 Sox (24-8 out of the gate) either. And, we can take solace in the fact that the Twins and/or Tigers aren't off to incredible starts where we're playing catch-up the entire season and burning out simply fighting to get back to first.

 

Obviously, we SHOULD be 7-3 or 8-2, though.

 

How many teams have led in every single game to start a season and suffered FOUR 8th or 9th inning blown leads?

 

Heck, I don't think the Twins in 2006 did that in the entire season. Of course, having Joe Nathan or Mariano Rivera is a different animal than what we're dealing with now.

 

As many are pointing out, if you can't trust Thornton to close out an anemic-hitting A's team AT HOME, then what situations can you use him in? Only with a 2-3 run lead and cross your fingers, like many Jenks saves the last couple of seasons, where there has to be a considerable cushion in order to survive the 9th, and even then, it often wasn't enough?

 

The entire bullpen will come apart if the team and Ozzie stop believing in Ohman, Pena, Thornton, etc. We're at $128 million for our payroll. There's not an extra $3-5 million sitting around to bring in another veteran reliever, who, odds are, would be just as likely to be bad as good on a year-to-year basis. If we end up trading Viciedo (who makes B. Allen pale in comparison) for another version of Pena to secure the bullpen, this messageboard will explode again, and yet that might be necessary if these problems don't work themselves out in the first 6-8 weeks.

 

Once the momentum or "storyline" of the Sox bullpen becoming unreliable/inconsistent/erratic starts to creep into every post-game interview, this season will be in serious jeopardy. We turned it around last year, but it wasn't enough. Thankfully, we have some cushion....but that cushion ends when/if Santos and/or Sale can't get the job done. As Ozzie said, he went through 3 closers in 2005, although in all fairness, Hermanson wasn't pulled because of ineffectiveness, it was more from injuries and Jenks emerged just at the right moment to breathe final life into the team, along with McCarthy.

 

We also have Peavy returning that will breathe some fire into this team with his competitiveness, hopefully.

Edited April 12, 2011 by caulfield12

[jenksycat]

Spend some time on Twins boards.... I think you'll find it "enlightening".

 

Gardenhire gets the same type of respect there that Ozzie gets here.

 

But he said BOTTOM LINE!

[Steve9347]

Monday Morning QB.

 

Matty gave up the leadoff double, JP dropped a flyball. At some point you have to trust that your well-paid players will play like it. I'm sure after last night, Ozzie is going to make some changes.

[Iwritecode]

I DO know he's dead, if that's what you're asking. It's an inside joke.

 

OK, you had me worried there for a second.

 

[Greg Hibbard]

my bigger question is

 

why did Thornton come in to face 2 right handers instead of either Sale or Santos, given what we were just told about closer-by-committee and matchups?

 

 

[Texsox]

Clearly the only gambles worth taking are the ones that work out, the rest are stupid managerial decisions.

 

You can't trust your closer to close games, so keep in your starters. The manager destroys arms by having the guys work too many innings.

 

Players want managers that will pull them right before disaster. Players want managers who will trust them to do their jobs.

 

There are a long list of managers who are loved and respected by their fanbase. OK, I can only think of one, and that is probably wrong, Tony in St. Louis.

 

 

[G&T]

Clearly the only gambles worth taking are the ones that work out, the rest are stupid managerial decisions.

 

You can't trust your closer to close games, so keep in your starters. The manager destroys arms by having the guys work too many innings.

 

Players want managers that will pull them right before disaster. Players want managers who will trust them to do their jobs.

 

There are a long list of managers who are loved and respected by their fanbase. OK, I can only think of one, and that is probably wrong, Tony in St. Louis.

 

There is really only one reality about this: show me a bad bullpen, and I'll show you a bad manager.

 

If the bullpen executes, Ozzie is brilliant. If not, then he sucks. It's about the only thing an AL manager has to do, and if they aren't doing their job, then the manager always looks bad.

[caulfield12]

Clearly the only gambles worth taking are the ones that work out, the rest are stupid managerial decisions.

 

You can't trust your closer to close games, so keep in your starters. The manager destroys arms by having the guys work too many innings.

 

Players want managers that will pull them right before disaster. Players want managers who will trust them to do their jobs.

 

There are a long list of managers who are loved and respected by their fanbase. OK, I can only think of one, and that is probably wrong, Tony in St. Louis.

 

 

Not so much anymore with LaRussa. Plus, his prickly and egotistical personality doesn't sit well with most...when he's winning, they love it, but that hasn't been as often recently.

 

I think Joe Maddon with TB and Scioscia with the Angels have to be right up there...although Scioscia definitely has his detractors, too. Francona's won 2 World Series championships, but everyone knows how unforgiving the Boston media has a propensity to be.

 

Ron Washington and Bruce Bochy have had their trying moments as well, for different reasons.

 

Detroit's fanbase has been HYPER critical of Leyland, although I bet 60-65% of SoxTalk would flip him for Guillen straight-up (no Miggy Cabrera or Hanley Ramirez coming our way).

Edited April 12, 2011 by caulfield12

[hi8is]

If the bullpen executes, Ozzie is brilliant. If not, then he sucks. It's about the only thing an AL manager has to do, and if they aren't doing their job, then the manager always looks bad.

I agree to an extent here - however, if the pen struggles and the manager takes action rather than being blinded by pride and complacency... then the manage in question looks good - rather than bad.

 

If things don't change by the time the LAA series is over - definitive changes have to be made or Kenny needs to hold Ozzie accountable... At that time it's on his shoulders for being passive.

[WCSox]

Clearly the only gambles worth taking are the ones that work out, the rest are stupid managerial decisions.

 

You can't trust your closer to close games, so keep in your starters. The manager destroys arms by having the guys work too many innings.

 

Players want managers that will pull them right before disaster. Players want managers who will trust them to do their jobs.

 

Yeah, pretty much. Lots of silly Monday Morning Quarterbacking going on here.

 

Pulling MB after 99 pitches was the right move. It's mid-April, he's still building arm strength, and he has a gazillion innings of wear and tear on that arm to begin with.

 

You don't leave your starting pitcher in there just because your closer gives up too many extra-base hits in save situations, or because your left fielder can't catch. You also don't blame your manager for lack of player execution.

Edited April 12, 2011 by WCSox

[WCSox]

But the point is that Ozzie HAS TO TRUST the guys on his roster.

 

Bingo. And on top of that, he has to determine who he can and cannot trust this season. And the only way to do that is to run those guys out there and let them sink or swim.

 

[JohnCangelosi]

Go ahead and flame me all you like, I am just telling you like it is. I also got flamed for being the only one on this board who said MT doesn't have what it takes to close and the quicker we realize that the better off we'll be.

 

NOTE:

 

I said this after BS # 1.

 

And I got flamed. Which one of you guys that flamed me is going to man up and realize that it appears, unfortunately, I was right?

 

I'm actually one of the guys on this board that really likes Ozzie as a manager, I just think his decisions cost us at least 5-7 games a year, and last night WAS DEFINITELY ONE OF THEM.

 

And if we lose to Minny by 3 games again this year or whatever, I won't forget last nights game in September like most everyone else will. Every game counts and we cannot afford to just throw them in the trash by making stupid choices in the 9th. Putting MT was a HORRIBLE decision. DEAL WITH IT.

 

But if you want to stick your head in the sand and blame the loss SOLELY on JP, go ahead. Your choice.