WCSox Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (qwerty @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 04:38 PM) I made note of this in another thread. Pena would have had more than enough rest to go at least one, if not two innings. Even if he couldn't go two... crain would have been more than capable of going one inning after his 1.1 innings the day prior... as the day before that was an off day. So how i see it, there was no valid reason for jackson to go back out there at that point, it certainly was not because the entire bullpen needed rest. Pena is a mop-up guy, not the type you want out there to hold a lead. So that basically leaves Crain, who would then be unavailable to pitch the following day. Or Santos, who would also be unavailable the following day if he had to throw both the 8th and 9th. Perhaps I give Ozzie too much credit, but I'm assuming that he was thinking about what his bullpen options would be the following day as well. I still think that these two scenarios are not all that similar. The Sox bullpen was taxed significantly more before Jackson's last start, and that undoubtedly played a role in Ozzie keeping Jackson in. That and the availability of Thornton last night, who is supposedly the most dominant pitcher in that 'pen. I didn't get to see Mark's start last night, but I did see Jackson's on my day off last Thursday. He had absolutely filthy stuff, even in the later innings. So there's even more reason to let him pitch the 8th. Who is this imaginary guy potentially throwing 130 pitches? Can't be buehrle. Well it could, but for him to toss 30+ pitches up there in one inning likely means he would have given up several runs before departing. Fine, how about 16-21 pitches to get him to 115-120? That's pretty typical for an inning of work, especially in the 9th when his arm is tired and he may let a runner or two on. As I've said before, what's the point of making Mark throw 115-120 pitches this early in the season when you have a fresh closer and a few others in the bullpen who are rested enough enough handle an inning of work. If you can't trust Thornton to hold a one-run lead, you need a new closer. Hell, maybe Ozzie wanted to use last night as one last chance to see if Thornton would sink or swim before taking him out of the closer role. Edited April 13, 2011 by WCSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 07:52 PM) Matt's at fault. But I'm a lot more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. He's been so good for so long that I think we take it for granted. JP? No comment. If he's not going to catch the damn ball he has next to no worth. I dismissed what happened in the Tampa game as a fluke. But again? Unacceptable. Yes, it was completely ridiculous he dropped that ball. No argument. But he's been a pretty good defensive player throughout his career. Giving Thornton the benefit of the doubt and refusing to do so with Juan is kind of hypocritical. I mean I doubt he lost the ability to catch or track a fly ball over the course of the off-season. He also doesn't look as if he's lost any speed. I'm still dismissing it as a fluke unless it happens again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Apr 12, 2011 -> 05:50 PM) Ugh, I hate when people place all of the blame on one person when multiple people were at fault. The defense AND Thornton let us down last night. He allowed one hit. Like I said, he certainly didn't look good out there but it's kind of hard to blame him for the loss when he just allowed a hit that didn't leave the park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 09:24 AM) He allowed one hit. Like I said, he certainly didn't look good out there but it's kind of hard to blame him for the loss when he just allowed a hit that didn't leave the park. He allowed a leadoff double, not just some minor blip of a hit. Then the error. Then a line drive that, luckily, was smashed right into Konerko's glove. Pierre messed up, but Thornton looked terrible, too. A real closer MUST be able to pitch over errors from time to time. I understand this isn't the Thornton we all know and love right now, but fact is, it's the Thornton we have at the moment. We cannot afford to have a closer out there everyone has to play perfect baseball or the game is over. Fielders WILL mess up from time to time...he has to shake that off and pitch over it if/when it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCangelosi Posted April 13, 2011 Author Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 08:05 AM) Yes, it was completely ridiculous he dropped that ball. No argument. But he's been a pretty good defensive player throughout his career. Giving Thornton the benefit of the doubt and refusing to do so with Juan is kind of hypocritical. I mean I doubt he lost the ability to catch or track a fly ball over the course of the off-season. He also doesn't look as if he's lost any speed. I'm still dismissing it as a fluke unless it happens again. I think the fly ball that Juan dropped in the Tampa game was ridiculous, but the other night against the A's, that wasn't a "simple" catch. That ball was smoked (just like every other ball was off Thornton) and the wind was playing havoc with it as well, so I still give JP the benefit of the doubt. I thought generally speaking he played pretty good D for us last year in LF so let's hope the worst is behind him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 08:29 AM) He allowed a leadoff double, not just some minor blip of a hit. Then the error. Then a line drive that, luckily, was smashed right into Konerko's glove. Pierre messed up, but Thornton looked terrible, too. A real closer MUST be able to pitch over errors from time to time. I understand this isn't the Thornton we all know and love right now, but fact is, it's the Thornton we have at the moment. We cannot afford to have a closer out there everyone has to play perfect baseball or the game is over. Fielders WILL mess up from time to time...he has to shake that off and pitch over it if/when it happens. And once again, I said that he looked bad on Monday, never denied that. I just have a hard time actually blaming him for the loss considering it wasn't his doing that allowed the run to score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (JohnCangelosi @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 08:37 AM) I think the fly ball that Juan dropped in the Tampa game was ridiculous, but the other night against the A's, that wasn't a "simple" catch. That ball was smoked (just like every other ball was off Thornton) and the wind was playing havoc with it as well, so I still give JP the benefit of the doubt. I thought generally speaking he played pretty good D for us last year in LF so let's hope the worst is behind him. That ball really wasn't smoked but the wind was certainly playin havoc on it. That being said, that's definitely a catch he has to make. Juan's biggest attribute to us is the fact that he's normally an above average lf but so far this year he's cost us two games out there with his glove, this just can't happen. As others have said, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in left because he's been so good but this kind of crap can't happen anymore. He's had his two big f*** ups in the first week and a half of the season, he pretty much has to be flawless out there the rest of the year now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 09:53 AM) That ball really wasn't smoked but the wind was certainly playin havoc on it. That being said, that's definitely a catch he has to make. Juan's biggest attribute to us is the fact that he's normally an above average lf but so far this year he's cost us two games out there with his glove, this just can't happen. As others have said, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in left because he's been so good but this kind of crap can't happen anymore. He's had his two big f*** ups in the first week and a half of the season, he pretty much has to be flawless out there the rest of the year now. I will say this much. That side of the field gives all fielders a lot more trouble on windy days. Ever since they closed off the upper deck opening, on the outside of the ballpark, the windflow has completely changed on balls up in the air. Especially on pop ups, you will see guys start towards the line, and then when the ball comes back down below the top of the upperdeck, it spins back towards the field of play. I really think the wind blows one way outside of the ballpark, and then the opposite way inside the ballpark. I can't tell you how many times I have seen players make that exact same type of play, especially C, 3B, SS, and LF. Heck Suzuki did the exact same thing in that game. I'm not sure that Pierre's ball was because of that problem, but it sure wouldn't surprise me. That being said, he HAS to make that play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 09:29 AM) He allowed a leadoff double, not just some minor blip of a hit. Then the error. Then a line drive that, luckily, was smashed right into Konerko's glove. Pierre messed up, but Thornton looked terrible, too. A real closer MUST be able to pitch over errors from time to time. I understand this isn't the Thornton we all know and love right now, but fact is, it's the Thornton we have at the moment. We cannot afford to have a closer out there everyone has to play perfect baseball or the game is over. Fielders WILL mess up from time to time...he has to shake that off and pitch over it if/when it happens. How can you pitch over an error when that error leads directly to a run? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 09:50 AM) And once again, I said that he looked bad on Monday, never denied that. I just have a hard time actually blaming him for the loss considering it wasn't his doing that allowed the run to score. With the way hitters are crushing him...do you really believe he would have made it out of that inning? I don't, and I love me some Thornton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 10:28 AM) With the way hitters are crushing him...do you really believe he would have made it out of that inning? I don't, and I love me some Thornton. I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 10:16 AM) How can you pitch over an error when that error leads directly to a run? In that specific case, my point isn't very valid, obviously. But when you're getting lit up everyday, it doesn't matter, even in instances where you could pitch over errors or lead off doubles (for instance), he's not going to be able to do it. Thornton isn't fooling anyone, and nobody is afraid to hit against him right now. Do you have faith Thornton could pitch over errors, or even pitch over lead off doubles? Right now, the way he looks, I don't. Honestly, even if Pierre made that catch, I was hoping Ozzie would yank Thornton that night. I remember saying, oh thank god that didn't leave the park when I saw JP lining up the catch on the track...obviously before he dropped it. It's not like bad luck hits here, every batter that faced him that night hit him hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 09:28 AM) With the way hitters are crushing him...do you really believe he would have made it out of that inning? I don't, and I love me some Thornton. No idea but once again, not the point I was trying to make. And for the record, before Monday's appearance, Matt's given up 1 hard hit ball in his other save opportunities(the Johnson homer that was absolutely crushed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 09:53 AM) That ball really wasn't smoked but the wind was certainly playin havoc on it. That being said, that's definitely a catch he has to make. Juan's biggest attribute to us is the fact that he's normally an above average lf but so far this year he's cost us two games out there with his glove, this just can't happen. As others have said, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in left because he's been so good but this kind of crap can't happen anymore. He's had his two big f*** ups in the first week and a half of the season, he pretty much has to be flawless out there the rest of the year now. GTFO. It was about 3 inches away from being a homer. QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 10:28 AM) With the way hitters are crushing him...do you really believe he would have made it out of that inning? I don't, and I love me some Thornton. Thank you for saying it so simply! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 10:52 AM) GTFO. It was about 3 inches away from being a homer. Thank you for saying it so simply! In a wind blow USCF that doesn't mean it was smoked, not in the least. And for the 90th time, Matt looked like crap on Monday, no doubt but you can't really put the loss on him when it wasn't his doing that allowed the run to score. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 11:55 AM) In a wind blow USCF that doesn't mean it was smoked, not in the least. And for the 90th time, Matt looked like crap on Monday, no doubt but you can't really put the loss on him when it wasn't his doing that allowed the run to score. Wasn't his doing? How did that guy get on second? The dropped ball bad luck balanced out the pure luck of the 500mph rocket hit at Konerko. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Apr 13, 2011 -> 11:55 AM) In a wind blow USCF that doesn't mean it was smoked, not in the least. And for the 90th time, Matt looked like crap on Monday, no doubt but you can't really put the loss on him when it wasn't his doing that allowed the run to score. It's the same as when Jenks loaded the bases up and Santos allowed a run to score. Jenks didn't get the blown save, but he deserved it. Thornton was going to blow it either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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