It'll Take a Brave Manager to Change Mindset on Starters

[greg775]

Removing dominant starters after eight innings really is a sucky part of modern baseball.

Is there any proof one more inning, considering the adrenaline the pitcher would have, helps ruin arms?

Mark and Danks should have completed easy, clean, victories recently.

These clean victories can set a tone for a season.

Instead we see what happens when you start anew and bring in a reliever.

 

I say we need a brave manager or GM or owner (Nolan Ryan) to say "f*** pitch counts" when

starters are dominant through eight.

Let 'em finish their masterpieces.

Did Picasso let some clown finish his work at the end?

 

Oops I meant 'change' in my headline. can somebody change it?

Edited April 13, 2011 by greg775

[TheBigHurt]

I'm speechless.

[ScottyDo]

Removing dominant starters after eight innings really is a sucky part of modern baseball.

Is there any proof one more inning, considering the adrenaline the pitcher would have, helps ruin arms?

Mark and Danks should have completed easy, clean, victories recently.

These clean victories can set a tone for a season.

Instead we see what happens when you start anew and bring in a reliever.

 

I say we need a brave manager or GM or owner (Nolan Ryan) to say "f*** pitch counts" when

starters are dominant through eight.

Let 'em finish their masterpieces.

Did Picasso let some clown finish his work at the end?

I think they would have finished these games, were we later in the season. Plus, I think Ozzie's theory thusfar has been to try and build some confidence for the 'pen so we can break out of the spiral. Unfortunately, there's no lead large enough to do that with, apparently, so we may have to resort to your suggestion.

 

Also, the bolded is a great idea. Maybe he would have put that chick's eye next to her other eye if someone had played mop-up for him in the late innings.

Edited April 13, 2011 by ScottyDo

[ptatc]

Removing dominant starters after eight innings really is a sucky part of modern baseball.

Is there any proof one more inning, considering the adrenaline the pitcher would have, helps ruin arms?

Mark and Danks should have completed easy, clean, victories recently.

These clean victories can set a tone for a season.

Instead we see what happens when you start anew and bring in a reliever.

 

I say we need a brave manager or GM or owner (Nolan Ryan) to say "f*** pitch counts" when

starters are dominant through eight.

Let 'em finish their masterpieces.

Did Picasso let some clown finish his work at the end?

 

Oops I meant 'change' in my headline. can somebody change it?

 

You're going to need the pen at some point. You've got to try to work them through problems. Letting them sit on the bench will not help them improve. You might as well try it now because if the pen is bad, the season is over. The starters can't complete every game.

 

Actually, there is a theory out there that Picasso did leave some of his work to be finished by others, A child of his i believe.

Edited April 13, 2011 by ptatc

[Paint it Black]

The A's can't hit. Pen needed a confidence booster. Compound that with pitchers need to last a whole season. Why is this hard to understand?

 

Oh and I could look like Nolan Ryan IF I HAD NEFTALI FELIZ IN MY PEN.

 

 

[Paint it Black]

And seriously, isn't Ozzie pretty "brave" by going with Sale in the 9th and pulling him rather quickly? Then instead of going to the "closer" he went to Craine, where most managers would have gone with the closer.

 

Who is closing for this team doesn't matter and it never should have. Who is getting outs is what matters.

[Soxbadger]

If you cant get 3 outs without giving up 3 runs, you dont deserve to be in the majors.

 

Its getting to the point where the Sox are at statistical hilarity. This cant not continue to happen.

 

 

[jeffro2525]

Overworking the starters while at the same time not challenging the bullpen are both things that would come back and bite the Sox later in the year...

[Paint it Black]

Its getting to the point where the Sox are at statistical hilarity. This cant not continue to happen.

 

THIS. They're too good and have had too many bloop hits fall in late innings.

 

Plus, if you're a believer like I am still in this pen, at least the struggles might be out of the way early as opposed to say September.

[fathom]

No problem with pulling Danks, but pulling Buehrle was a dumb move on Monday. Who knows, maybe Thornton has more confidence if Monday night's shenaningans never happen and we sweep Oakland.

[Soxbadger]

Its not even about the pitchers at this point, its just the biggest streak of bad breaks, nonsense, etc in the 9th inning I can ever remember.

 

Even the best hitters in baseball only get a hit 1/3 times.

 

It just cant continue. Itd be one thing if we werent even getting to the 9th with a lead.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Its not even about the pitchers at this point, its just the biggest streak of bad breaks, nonsense, etc in the 9th inning I can ever remember.

 

Even the best hitters in baseball only get a hit 1/3 times.

 

It just cant continue. Itd be one thing if we werent even getting to the 9th with a lead.

 

I take it you didn't watch many Diamondback games last year.

[Lillian]

I couldn't agree with you more, Greg. The current standard method of managing pitching staffs is very expensive and ineffective.

A team can have 5 terrific starters, but unless they pay and get good performances from several relievers, they are likely to experience exactly what has happened to the Sox lately. They are wasting great starts by insisting upon using the pen every game.

 

Since baseball seems reluctant to return to the days of letting pitchers throw 150 pitches per outing, there has to be another way for a team to still get their money's worth out of their high priced starters.

 

A few years ago I devised a method of utilizing pitchers in a more efficient and cost effective way. I wrote a paper on it.

The basic idea is to select your 6 best pitchers and divide them into 3 pairs.

Each starter goes approximately 80 to 90 pitches and his "partner" finishes the game providing he can do so in 40 to 50 pitches.

 

Since starters routinely have a side session in between starts, this method would utilize that 40 to 50 effort in a game, rather than a bullpen session.

The 3 teams of two starters each, working in tandem would take their turn in those first 3 games.

The next 3 games would use the same 3 teams of 2 starters each, but with their roles reversed. So the starter who threw 90 pitches, 3 days earlier, would only throw approximately 40 to 50 pitches in his second appearance.

 

The consequence of this system is that a starter would work every 3 or 4 days, taking turns between 90 pitch appearances and 45 pitch efforts.

The advantage to this approach is that you get your 6 best pitchers working more often. That means the team is getting more productivity out of them.

It also means that you don't need to commit lots of money to an expensive bullpen, to which you must entrust the huge responsibility of preserving a good effort by the starter.

The function of the bullpen would be to take over in blow out games, rather than waste both starters in either a hopelessly losing effort, or in a game where the team is coasting, after a huge early lead.

 

Our current staff might look something like this:

 

Game 1 Jackson 90

Danks 45

 

Game 2 Buerhle 90

Floyd 45

 

Game 3 Peavy 90

Sale 45

 

Game 4 Danks 90

Jackson 45

 

Game 5 Floyd 90

Buerhle 45

 

Game 6 Sale 90

Peavy 45

 

The rest of the staff would be reserved for special situations and blow outs. They can all compete to earn a place as a "main pitcher", and always have a chance to take over a spot in the rotation, if they earn it.

There would be no need to use 3 or 4 pitchers in a well pitched game, the way starters are routinely automatically removed after 6 innings, with the first reliever pitching the 7th, a second reliever the 8th, and the closer finishing. That is too many pitchers to depend upon being effective. The odds of one of them being off that game are too great.

I'd rather depend upon 2 of my best 6 pitchers every day, than one of my best and 3 more lesser guys every game.

It seems rediculous to pay a guy $15 million per year to have him throw 100 pitches every 5 days!

Edited April 13, 2011 by Lillian

[Milkman delivers]

You're going to need the pen at some point. You've got to try to work them through problems. Letting them sit on the bench will not help them improve. You might as well try it now because if the pen is bad, the season is over. The starters can't complete every game.

 

Actually, there is a theory out there that Picasso did leave some of his work to be finished by others, A child of his i believe.

 

This is the problem with the Sox. The bullpen is bad now, bad enough to screw the team even though the offense and starters are clicking. Soon enough, the bullpen will get hot, but the starters or the offense will then be so bad that they will become as insurmountable as the bullpen is now.

[Milkman delivers]

THIS. They're too good and have had too many bloop hits fall in late innings.

 

Plus, if you're a believer like I am still in this pen, at least the struggles might be out of the way early as opposed to say September.

 

We also say this every season. "We're getting our troubles out of the way now, so we will have all of the kinks worked out by the end of the year." And then we always play terribly and stumble in August and/or September.

[Soxbadger]

Actually even AZ was a fluke case:

 

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/...a_diamondbacks/

 

The good news? There's a bit of bad luck there. No, the relievers aren't very good, but you'd almost have to intentionally play bad pitchers to allow that many runs in relief and even then, relief ERAs are so volatile that you'll still luck into 2 or 3 guys having good seasons.

 

Its just a fluke. If the Sox continued this pace, Im pretty sure theyd shatter every blown save record.

[Soxbadger]

If you are ready to quit now because the Sox teams wont do good in August or September, you might as well not watch the game.

 

Because when you look at the AL Central and look at the Sox, im not sure how they arent the favorite. They are above 500, its not the end of the world.

 

Ive seen the Sox find way worse ways to lose to the A's, it is what it is.

[jenksycat]

This is the problem with the Sox. The bullpen is bad now, bad enough to screw the team even though the offense and starters are clicking. Soon enough, the bullpen will get hot, but the starters or the offense will then be so bad that they will become as insurmountable as the bullpen is now.

 

Basing that on.....what exactly?

[Paint it Black]

Basing that on.....what exactly?

11 games. Obviously, enough sample size.

[TheBigHurt]

This is the problem with the Sox. The bullpen is bad now, bad enough to screw the team even though the offense and starters are clicking. Soon enough, the bullpen will get hot, but the starters or the offense will then be so bad that they will become as insurmountable as the bullpen is now.

 

That really HAS seemed to be a constant for this team in recent years.

[DaveBrown85]

Nolan Ryan couldn't be a GM here. If someone made a mistake he'd put them in a headlock and knock the snot out of them

[kapzk]

I don't blame Ozzie for not bringing back Buerhle or Danks in their recent games

[BigSqwert]

I don't blame Ozzie for not bringing back Buerhle or Danks in their recent games

I'm going to have to ask you to leave....this site.

[bobryansson]

Managing would be SO easy if you could know what was going to be the result of each decision. Nobody figured, until it happened, that the bullpen would be so unsuccessful. Pierre had 1 error all last year. Of the players assembled in AZ, this is the best roster and these are the best relief pitchers to which we have access. Instead of abandoning them, as this board is (mostly) doing, Ozzie has to play them & get them through their troubles and back to their proven capabilities. Thornton can pitch and Pierre can catch. They will again. All athletes get the yips, get anxious, get cold, whatever.

[BigSqwert]

It'll Take a Brave Manager...

 

Isn't Bobby Cox available?