This year will end before the trade deadline with a firesale

[BigSqwert]

And you absolutely should but it's way too damn early to be giving up on this particular team that's for sure.

Honestly, I haven't. But I'm seeing similar trends that I've seen with Guillen led teams.

[Milkman delivers]

And you absolutely should but it's way too damn early to be giving up on this particular team that's for sure.

 

This same debate happens every year, though. Some people think it's an entire organization problem. If this year ends the same way the last few have ended, there will still be people saying "it's too early" next season when the same thing is happening again.

[Balta1701]

2005 was a long time ago. We have one of the highest payrolls in the AL and have been in a pretty weak division during that span. I expect a better rate of success.

I don't have data including the most recent 2 seasons, but from the period of 1998-2008, the White Sox were #6 in the league in lowest cost per win.

[Rowand44]

This same debate happens every year, though. Some people think it's an entire organization problem. If this year ends the same way the last few have ended, there will still be people saying "it's too early" next season when the same thing is happening again.

Well that's because it always is. When you quite obviously have the most talented roster in your division and you're 7-9 in mid April it's always too freakin early to give up. This team quite clearly has a good offense and a solid top 4 of the rotation. Now, I was quite confident to start the year that our bullpen was going to be very good this year, I can't say I'm confident in that anymore. If they are, we have a good chance to not only make the playoffs but do some damage, if they continue to be dreadful, well than we're not going anywhere.

 

And putting an April trend on a manager is just odd to me in baseball, the manager can only do so much and while I've been a huge critic of Ozzies(the guy honestly pisses me off to no end) I'm not pinning any odd trend like this on him, the start to this season is not his fault.

 

That all being said, if we continue to struggle and fail to reach the post season, Ozzie and Kenny both need to go. I'm completely with you guys who believe that we've for the most part underachieved during this managements tenure and if this current roster can't succeed then we need some wholesale changes.

[Milkman delivers]

Haha, whatever. I can think of quite a few teams that make the playoffs consistently and not all of them have payrolls of "a couple of hundred million dollars." All of these teams have made the playoffs more than the Sox in the last 10 years:

 

Angels

Athletics

Twins

Yankees

Red Sox

Braves

Phillies

Cardinals

Cubs

Astros

Diamondbacks

Dodgers

Giants

 

Hell, even the Indians, Rays, Rockies, and Padres have made the playoffs as many times as the Sox over the last 10 years.

 

Now I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure the Sox have had the highest or second-highest payroll in the division in each of those 10 years. That is not good. And I hardly think it Red Sox-ian to expect better results.

 

I fear you and others just have such low standards that anything other than a last place finish is acceptable.

 

I just went back to check out my own numbers. According to USA Today, the White Sox have been in the top 2 of payroll in the division since 2001.

[BigSqwert]

I don't have data including the most recent 2 seasons, but from the period of 1998-2008, the White Sox were #6 in the league in lowest cost per win.

So what does that tell me? That we finish over .500 pretty often but fail to make the post season?

[Milkman delivers]

Well that's because it always is. When you quite obviously have the most talented roster in your division and you're 7-9 in mid April it's always too freakin early to give up. This team quite clearly has a good offense and a solid top 4 of the rotation. Now, I was quite confident to start the year that our bullpen was going to be very good this year, I can't say I'm confident in that anymore. If they are, we have a good chance to not only make the playoffs but do some damage, if they continue to be dreadful, well than we're not going anywhere.

 

And putting an April trend on a manager is just odd to me in baseball, the manager can only do so much and while I've been a huge critic of Ozzies(the guy honestly pisses me off to no end) I'm not pinning any odd trend like this on him, the start to this season is not his fault.

 

That all being said, if we continue to struggle and fail to reach the post season, Ozzie and Kenny both need to go. I'm completely with you guys who believe that we've for the most part underachieved during this managements tenure and if this current roster can't succeed then we need some wholesale changes.

 

This is the only light at the end of the tunnel for me. With each painful loss, I have a glimmer of hope and I can work up a smile knowing that they will also be gone.

[caulfield12]

Completely agree. Someone made the point that he has been playing with house money since 05 and its completely true. You give this guy an open checkbook and this is the s*** that he produces? He has basically traded away the farm for a team that has nowhere to go but down. Beckham is the only player on the team with any true potential and that has demonstrated success. Sale is also promising. That's it. That's what we have to look forward to.

 

At least ticket prices should fall when they sell out

 

 

Let's talk some economics 101.

 

1) Usually 70-80% of the tickets are purchased by the same 20%, your "core" audience, so to speak...not walk-up or StubHub types

 

2) Those people will be pissed, pissed, pissed that they paid top dollar for season tickets, only to see others paying 10-50% for similar tickets...so when you end up alienating half of your season ticket base (and corporate sponsors/luxury box renters), what's your response?

 

3) It's been proven by about 1,000 in-depth sports mgmnt studies that filling up the park with discount tickets doesn't come close to offsetting the normal concessions, food and souvenir sales of full-paying/non-discounted nights

 

4) Once the team starts to play well again, you have an incredibly difficult time getting customers to adjust to rising ticket prices again...it's very easy to discount tickets, but that erodes the core value of your product, making it much more difficult to re-price them at the level you really want

 

5) While I'll agree that the bleacher seat prices have gotten ridiculous since the opening of the park, that parking is too high (compare to the 2 LA teams), that upper deck tickets still should be somewhat discounted compared to previous levels...they've incorporated a lot of different promotions and implemented strategies for those Monday-Thursday night and day games to increase attendance over the years

 

6) One thing that works really well and they'll probably not do (at a major league park) is Two for Tuesdays or Thirsty Thursdays (discounted beer)...there are multiple reasons for this, but they have had family sections in the past to "protect" those with kids from the crazy fun-seekers who drink too much and get out of control, still, it wouldn't be the worst idea to make Thursdays more of a "singles/20's and 30's crowd" and target that specific demographic, do more outreach with local corporations for group discounts or Groupon, etc.

 

7) Besides the Saturday Fireworks, the sales and marketing team need to come up with some new creative promotions (besides giveaways) than past successes (copied) like Dog Day Afternoon and Bobbleheads and things like that....in all fairness, the White Sox probably rank in the top 50% in this regard, they've gotten more creative in the last decade, but their best marketing method was the 2005 World Series and the bloom came off that rose early with the 2007 season and collapse at the end of 2006

 

It's also true that corporate marketing dollars were in a stranglehold in the last couple of years and things are just now loosening up a BIT...especially compared to hiring.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2011 by caulfield12

[TitoMB345]

Even I, the king of pessimistic thinking, am getting tired of these threads.

[Greg Hibbard]

Since 1993, the White Sox have won more games than any team in the American League with the exception of the Yankees, Red Sox and Indians, and they are JUST BEHIND the Indians.

 

They've averaged 86+ wins per 162 games during that span.

 

I really don't know what else to say. If you think this organization is s***, then do yourself a favor and just stop watching baseball.

[BigSqwert]

Since 1993, the White Sox have won more games than any team in the American League with the exception of the Yankees, Red Sox and Indians, and they are JUST BEHIND the Indians.

 

They've averaged 86+ wins per 162 games during that span.

 

I really don't know what else to say. If you think this organization is s***, then do yourself a favor and just stop watching baseball.

When they start giving rings to teams with good win averages per season I'll start flaunting that stat around. In the meantime, I'll continue to expect a high payroll team in a weak division to start making the post season on a more frequent basis.

[Balta1701]

When they start giving rings to teams with good win averages per season I'll start flaunting that stat around. In the meantime, I'll continue to expect a high payroll team in a weak division to start making the post season on a more frequent basis.

You do realize that the AL Central is the only division with 3 $100 million+ teams this year, right?

[Milkman delivers]

Since 1993, the White Sox have won more games than any team in the American League with the exception of the Yankees, Red Sox and Indians, and they are JUST BEHIND the Indians.

 

They've averaged 86+ wins per 162 games during that span.

 

I really don't know what else to say. If you think this organization is s***, then do yourself a favor and just stop watching baseball.

 

With four playoff appearances to show for it, being shown the door immediately in 3 of those 4 opportunities.

 

Always just good enough to be relevant, but just bad enough to not make a splash.

[sircaffey]

What do the 90's have anything to do with this team?

[BigSqwert]

You do realize that the AL Central is the only division with 3 $100 million+ teams this year, right?

Key words: this year

[Milkman delivers]

You do realize that the AL Central is the only division with 3 $100 million+ teams this year, right?

 

This is the first year of that

[caulfield12]

Since 1993, the White Sox have won more games than any team in the American League with the exception of the Yankees, Red Sox and Indians, and they are JUST BEHIND the Indians.

 

They've averaged 86+ wins per 162 games during that span.

 

I really don't know what else to say. If you think this organization is s***, then do yourself a favor and just stop watching baseball.

 

 

If you include the NL, I think the Braves or Cardinals are the only teams that end up on top (of the Sox) depending on which years you include....

 

and we have the same number of World Series championships as the Yankees and one more than the Indians or Twins. Of course, the reverse/flip side of that is being one coin flip by Rick Hahn's son in the wrong direction from being 1/10 over the last decade in post-season appearance versus the Twins' 7/9.

 

Of course, if you include 2000, it's 3/11 versus 6/11 for the Twins, but statistics can be slanted any way you want to support your point.

Edited April 19, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Key words: this year

So, you're content with losing this year and declare that no one should lose their job over this year's performance?

[BigSqwert]

So, you're content with losing this year and declare that no one should lose their job over this year's performance?

I'm not content with losing in any year.

[Jack Parkman]

KW and Ozzie should have been fired at the end of last season, and they should have gone young. I was prepared for that as a fan. Now, they have to find takers for underachieving, aging players that are a year older and declining more. I heard on the radio that baseball people were appalled at the Dunn contract because it paid him too much for a guy that has no speed and can't play defense.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Elgin Slim

[Balta1701]

I'm not content with losing in any year.

But you just told me that it was ok this year.

[BigSqwert]

But you just told me that it was ok this year.

No I didn't. You're using some Jedi mind tricks.

[StrangeSox]

So what does that tell me? That we finish over .500 pretty often but fail to make the post season?

 

It means JR is getting the most wins per dollar. That doesn't mean s*** to me as a fan beyond the long term sustainability of payroll levels.

[caulfield12]

When they start giving rings to teams with good win averages per season I'll start flaunting that stat around. In the meantime, I'll continue to expect a high payroll team in a weak division to start making the post season on a more frequent basis.

 

 

It doesn't matter about the past or the present with this year's team.

 

KW and Ozzie will both be gone and we'll be dealing with a major reconstruction project unless Quentin/A. Ramirez/Danks/Floyd PART 2 can be secured from other organizations in the offseason without dramatically degrading the major league roster. Not even all of KW's gambles working out again (to counter Peavy, Swisher, Javy, Rios for now, Teahen, Linebrink, Hudson/Jackson) are enough cushion to absorb the losses we'll suffer in firesale mode.

 

Right now, I'm far from certain what we have with Matt Thornton and whether it even makes sense to build around Beckham and Alexei. If it's not those two, along with Santos and Sale, there's no reason not to blow the entire thing up and start over from scratch with a completely new vision.

 

Of course, this is incredibly unlikely to happen, but we're in real trouble if Beckham and Alexei never sniff an All-Star game in their future Sox careers.

[Balta1701]

It means JR is getting the most wins per dollar. That doesn't mean s*** to me as a fan beyond the long term sustainability of payroll levels.

Yes it does, it means you're watching a team that wins more games than it would at the same payroll if we weren't getting that.

 

The White Sox, based on their payroll, should be an average team, winning about 81 games a year. Instead they average about 85.