This year will end before the trade deadline with a firesale

[StrangeSox]

So, you're content with losing this year and declare that no one should lose their job over this year's performance?

 

BS's point is that the AL Central has been pretty weak for the last decade, excluding significant payroll bumps this year, and that the Sox should have had much more success given their payroll levels vs. their competition over that period. Not sure how that leads to it being okay to lose in 2011.

[StrangeSox]

Yes it does, it means you're watching a team that wins more games than it would at the same payroll if we weren't getting that.

 

The White Sox, based on their payroll, should be an average team, winning about 81 games a year. Instead they average about 85.

 

The difference between an 81 and an 85 win team is negligible. Both are likely to miss the playoffs, and an extra four wins scattered about the season isn't otherwise noticeable.

[caulfield12]

KW and Ozzie should have been fired at the end of last season, and they should have gone young. I was prepared for that as a fan. Now, they have to find takers for underachieving, aging players that are a year older and declining more. I heard on the radio that baseball people were appalled at the Dunn contract because it paid him too much for a guy that has no speed and can't play defense.

 

 

That was NOTHING compared to the Werth and Crawford deals.

 

We overpaid...gave up on Thome one year too early, but if Joe Borchard was the right pick 10 years ago, we're not in this mess and having to constantly go outside the organization for talent.

 

By the way, you've just described Carlos Quentin as well as Dunn. But at least we didn't give up much for him.

 

 

[BigSqwert]

BS's point is that the AL Central has been pretty weak for the last decade, excluding significant payroll bumps this year, and that the Sox should have had much more success given their payroll levels vs. their competition over that period. Not sure how that leads to it being okay to lose in 2011.

I think he was just putting on his lawyer cap on and decomposing every word in my post to twist my logic around.

[fathom]

The Dunn contract was praised for being a great deal in contrast to the Werth/Crawford deals.

[StrangeSox]

Who the hell was appalled at the Dunn contract? That turned out to be a bargain based on the rest of the off season.

[Balta1701]

BS's point is that the AL Central has been pretty weak for the last decade, excluding significant payroll bumps this year, and that the Sox should have had much more success given their payroll levels vs. their competition over that period. Not sure how that leads to it being okay to lose in 2011.

You know, I'm not sure that I buy the "AL Central has been pretty weak" for the last decade. The AL East, for example, has had 2-3 moribund franchises for almost the whole decade, the Central has only had one. All of the other 4 teams from the Central have made the playoffs this decade, everyone except Detroit more than once. Every team has had at least 1 down year.

[caulfield12]

Yes it does, it means you're watching a team that wins more games than it would at the same payroll if we weren't getting that.

 

The White Sox, based on their payroll, should be an average team, winning about 81 games a year. Instead they average about 85.

 

 

Don't you mean based on their attendance, and not payroll?

[Balta1701]

I think he was just putting on his lawyer cap on and decomposing every word in my post to twist my logic around.

just pointing out that your logic means that either you can't fire ozzie based solely on this season or you have to accept that the Sox have been an above average successful team in previous years.

[Milkman delivers]

Yes it does, it means you're watching a team that wins more games than it would at the same payroll if we weren't getting that.

 

The White Sox, based on their payroll, should be an average team, winning about 81 games a year. Instead they average about 85.

 

WOWIE!

 

I can't wait to use that defense the next time someone mentions that the Sox have only been in the playoffs twice in ten years in a division in which they've had the highest payroll twice since 2001 and been in the top two every single year since that point. Or when it's mentioned that we've had 1 title in over 90 years, at least we average 85 wins when we should really only be at 81.

 

I much prefer to be slightly better than mediocre than to be the very definition of it!

[Balta1701]

Don't you mean based on their attendance, and not payroll?

No, based on payroll.

 

The Sox's attendance is in the lower part of the league but they have some of the higher ticket prices in the league.

[caulfield12]

You know, I'm not sure that I buy the "AL Central has been pretty weak" for the last decade. The AL East, for example, has had 2-3 moribund franchises for almost the whole decade, the Central has only had one. All of the other 4 teams from the Central have made the playoffs this decade, everyone except Detroit more than once. Every team has had at least 1 down year.

 

 

You can definitely make the argument that in 2005 and 2006 and parts of 2007, the AL Central was the best division in baseball. At least in the AL, which has been clearly superior to the NL for much of that time period.

 

Not so much now, with it shifting back to the Rays/Red Sox/Yankees since 2008.

 

 

[Balta1701]

WOWIE!

 

I can't wait to use that defense the next time someone mentions that the Sox have only been in the playoffs twice in ten years in a division in which they've had the highest payroll twice since 2001 and been in the top two every single year since that point. Or when it's mentioned that we've had 1 title in over 90 years, at least we average 85 wins when we should really only be at 81.

 

I much prefer to be slightly better than mediocre than to be the very definition of it!

Here's the problem though...if only 5/30 teams do a better job of extracting wins from a fixed amount of dollars, then what are the odds that if you fire everyone you're going to do a better job?

 

It's 16.7%. It's much, much more likely that you fire everyone and get worse. Then you do the same thing again.

[LittleHurt05]

No, based on payroll.

 

The Sox's attendance is in the lower part of the league but they have some of the higher ticket prices in the league.

 

Pretty sure I saw a stat on opening day, that the Sox ticket prices were 4th highest in baseball behind NYY, BOS, & the Cubs.

[caulfield12]

No, based on payroll.

 

The Sox's attendance is in the lower part of the league but they have some of the higher ticket prices in the league.

 

 

In revenue and overall club net asset value, we should be between 8th and 10th in the majors. Attendance is only 19-23ish during that time.

 

So we're overspending this year a bit out of choice, hence, "All In."

 

 

[Milkman delivers]

You know, I'm not sure that I buy the "AL Central has been pretty weak" for the last decade. The AL East, for example, has had 2-3 moribund franchises for almost the whole decade, the Central has only had one. All of the other 4 teams from the Central have made the playoffs this decade, everyone except Detroit more than once. Every team has had at least 1 down year.

 

Or you can take that and say that the division is so mediocre that basically anyone can win it. It's a farce for anyone to actually call the Central division good, and you know it.

[elrockinMT]

Too early to panic and call for a fire sale. Let's wait till at least the all-star break before writing this team off. Right now the AL Central is topsy turvy

[caulfield12]

Here's the problem though...if only 5/30 teams do a better job of extracting wins from a fixed amount of dollars, then what are the odds that if you fire everyone you're going to do a better job?

 

It's 16.7%. It's much, much more likely that you fire everyone and get worse. Then you do the same thing again.

 

 

Or you hire the Twins', Rays', Rangers' or A's entire front office and pray for post-season success!!!

 

If we did have Beane or Ryan/Smith and this team started appearing in playoffs like the Braves or Indians but almost always coming up short, I wonder if the b****ing/moaning/whining/griping would be any worse?

 

I think a lot of Twins' fans might trade the last decade for our World Series, that's for sure. Fortunately for them, they still have memories of 87 and 91, at least a large amount of the fanbase.

 

 

 

 

[Greg Hibbard]

With four playoff appearances to show for it, being shown the door immediately in 3 of those 4 opportunities.

 

Always just good enough to be relevant, but just bad enough to not make a splash.

 

How many other American League teams have won more than 1 World Series since 1993? I can think of two: the Yankees (5) and the Red Sox (2).

 

These teams have won one: Angels, Blue Jays

 

These teams have won none: The Mariners (not even a pennant), Indians, Devil Rays, Rangers, Twins, Tigers, Royals, Orioles, Athletics.

 

9/13 other teams haven't won a world series, 2 others have won exactly as many as the White Sox, and 2 have won more.

 

 

How many other AL teams have had more than 4 playoff appearances since 1993?

 

New York, Boston, Minnesota, Cleveland, Seattle, Oakland, LA. 7 of the 14 AL teams. 3 of those play in a 4 team west.

 

 

I honestly don't understand how anyone could evaluate the White Sox as anything but a top 5 AL franchise over the past twenty years.

[StrangeSox]

You know, I'm not sure that I buy the "AL Central has been pretty weak" for the last decade. The AL East, for example, has had 2-3 moribund franchises for almost the whole decade, the Central has only had one. All of the other 4 teams from the Central have made the playoffs this decade, everyone except Detroit more than once. Every team has had at least 1 down year.

 

The AL Central has won the Wild Card a grand total of one time since its inception. If I have the time later, I'll dig into AL Central vs. MLB statistics.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

How many other American League teams have won more than 1 World Series since 1993? I can think of two: the Yankees (5) and the Red Sox (2).

 

These teams have won one: Angels, Blue Jays

 

These teams have won none: The Mariners (not even a pennant), Indians, Devil Rays, Rangers, Twins, Tigers, Royals, Orioles, Athletics.

 

9/13 other teams haven't won a world series, 2 others have won exactly as many as the White Sox, and 2 have won more.

 

 

How many other AL teams have had more than 4 playoff appearances since 1993?

 

New York, Boston, Minnesota, Cleveland, Seattle, Oakland, LA. 7 of the 14 AL teams. 3 of those play in a 4 team west.

 

 

I honestly don't understand how anyone could evaluate the White Sox as anything but a top 5 AL franchise over the past twenty years.

 

When your main metric is WS wins, sure. If its consistent WS contender, no.

 

[Balta1701]

Or you hire the Twins', Rays', Rangers' or A's entire front office and pray for post-season success!!!

 

If we did have Beane or Ryan/Smith and this team started appearing in playoffs like the Braves or Indians but almost always coming up short, I wonder if the b****ing/moaning/whining/griping would be any worse?

 

I think a lot of Twins' fans might trade the last decade for our World Series, that's for sure. Fortunately for them, they still have memories of 87 and 91, at least a large amount of the fanbase.

It's worth noting that out of that list...one of those teams went bankrupt, one of those teams had to give their GM part ownership of the team and yet hasn't been back to the playoffs since 2006, one of them spent so long at the bottom of the league that they might as well call it the "Tampa Bay Memorial #1 pick", and the final is the Twins, which are on that list because of 2 hits; Joe Mauer and Johan Santana.

[caulfield12]

How many other American League teams have won more than 1 World Series since 1993? I can think of two: the Yankees (5) and the Red Sox (2).

 

These teams have won one: Angels, Blue Jays

 

These teams have won none: The Mariners (not even a pennant), Indians, Devil Rays, Rangers, Twins, Tigers, Royals, Orioles, Athletics.

 

9/13 other teams haven't won a world series, 2 others have won exactly as many as the White Sox, and 2 have won more.

 

 

How many other AL teams have had more than 4 playoff appearances since 1993?

 

New York, Boston, Minnesota, Cleveland, Seattle, Oakland, LA. 7 of the 14 AL teams. 3 of those play in a 4 team west.

 

 

I honestly don't understand how anyone could evaluate the White Sox as anything but a top 5 AL franchise over the past twenty years.

 

Especially when you consider the lack of post-season success by the A's and Twins.

 

Are those organizations more "dollar spending per win successful," of course!

 

The Mariners have totally bottomed out since their early 2000's hey-day.

 

You'd have to rank the Yankees/Red Sox at the top, the Angels a distant third and the White Sox up there with anyone for 4th.

 

Now whether being in the Top 30% of a league when you're in the 3rd largest media market (but traditionally the second-tier team) is success...I definitely think they've done pretty well compared to the past, especially 1961-1989. Those were three lost decades of Sox baseball, except for 1984's aberration.

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

The AL Central has won the Wild Card a grand total of one time since its inception. If I have the time later, I'll dig into AL Central vs. MLB statistics.

 

 

It's pretty irrelevant when you have the Yankees and Red Sox clearly outspending everyone by 20-30%.

 

The odds are always going to be against the rest of the AL East and another wild card team from the other 2 divisions.

[Milkman delivers]

When your main metric is WS wins, sure. If its consistent WS contender, no.

 

nice