Jerksticks Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 The division standings look upside down so there's no reason for me to panic. Look, Cleveland and KC are playing well while Minny and the Sox aren't. Since the talent levels don't equal these standings, the only explanation I can find is that this is a classic case of being sample-sized. We held home court vs Tampa, they're holding home court so far vs us, we need to even things up with the Angels in a few weeks, and we're 3-2 in the division. Nothing heading to Detroit can't fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Apr 20, 2011 -> 09:29 AM) I'd hope they wouldn't...way too much money for someone that had already had some red flags due to injuries. Too much money on one guy could mean less money for other free agents. The fans also label Mauer as a no show when it comes to the post season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 20, 2011 -> 07:11 AM) Seriously, if the Sox next GM doesn't have experience and is like 35 years old, all of Soxtalk will erupt because JR is cheap. I wouldn't. Quite frankly, somebody calling JR cheap really hasn't had ground to stand on since about 2004. He's proven he'll spend, and JR and Ozzie have proven that they won't win outside of a magic in a bottle year 6 seasons ago. If this season continues to go to hell, those two need to go to the unemployment line. And if we go young at GM and manager with guys who have heard of advanced statistics, can develop and keep young players, and won't waste outs bunting and stealing every single day, I'd be thrilled. Edited April 21, 2011 by whitesoxfan101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Apr 20, 2011 -> 10:08 PM) I wouldn't. Quite frankly, somebody calling JR cheap really hasn't had ground to stand on since about 2004. He's proven he'll spend, and JR and Ozzie have proven that they won't win outside of a magic in a bottle year 6 seasons ago. If this season continues to go to hell, those two need to go to the unemployment line. And if we go young at GM and manager with guys who have heard of advanced statistics, can develop and keep young players, and won't waste outs bunting and stealing every single day, I'd be thrilled. So should the rest of the staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 If and when Williams goes, I'd hope the Sox would let Hahn run the ship for a little bit. He does bring some advanced metrics to the table and has proven extremely valuable to the White Sox in general. That actually makes the most sense to me, and considering how often Reinsdorf has hired from within recently, that seems like a likely scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Apr 21, 2011 -> 12:08 AM) I wouldn't. Quite frankly, somebody calling JR cheap really hasn't had ground to stand on since about 2004. He's proven he'll spend, and JR and Ozzie have proven that they won't win outside of a magic in a bottle year 6 seasons ago. If this season continues to go to hell, those two need to go to the unemployment line. And if we go young at GM and manager with guys who have heard of advanced statistics, can develop and keep young players, and won't waste outs bunting and stealing every single day, I'd be thrilled. Develop and keep young players? Like Gavin Floyd, John Danks, Chris Sale, Matt Thornton, Bobby Jenks, Alexei Ramirez, Carlos Quentin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 21, 2011 -> 07:41 AM) Develop and keep young players? Like Gavin Floyd, John Danks, Chris Sale, Matt Thornton, Bobby Jenks, Alexei Ramirez, Carlos Quentin? I'm not sure we can get much credit for Quentin's development as a hitter. He just got the label of being injury prone and lost out in a roster logjam in Arizona. There were no doubts in the minds of many that he could hit. Thornton was already in his late 20's when we acquired him. Ramirez was also a finished product, in terms of already being in the prime of his career age-wise. Now if Viciedo, Beckham and Sale pan out, you can start to give them a little more "recent" credit, along with the likes of Mitchell and Thompson. Unfortunately, the Peavy trade, Swisher trades, the Vazquez to ATL move, Teahen, Rios for most of his time with Sox (minus April-June, 2010) all of the big ones since the 2008 season have been near unmitigated disasters. Pierre has really made a negligible difference...you could hardly argue it's been a huge positive for the Sox. In particular, Tyler Flowers, the centerpiece of that trade. Losing Sweeney didn't hurt nearly as much as the depth lost with Gonzalez and Richard on the starting pitching "big board." Edited April 21, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 21, 2011 -> 07:41 AM) Develop and keep young players? Like Gavin Floyd, John Danks, Chris Sale, Matt Thornton, Bobby Jenks, Alexei Ramirez, Carlos Quentin? Half of those guys played on other big league clubs before we got them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Apr 21, 2011 -> 10:08 AM) Half of those guys played on other big league clubs before we got them. Oh, ok, then I get to count Gio and Richard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 The more I think about who we'd have to trade in the event of an actual firesale, the more nervous I get. Hopefully we just play better from here on out and even if we come up short on making the playoffs, we play well enough to convince JR and KW to keep the core together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Apr 21, 2011 -> 10:40 AM) The more I think about who we'd have to trade in the event of an actual firesale, the more nervous I get. Hopefully we just play better from here on out and even if we come up short on making the playoffs, we play well enough to convince JR and KW to keep the core together. So, every other year, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Apr 21, 2011 -> 05:30 PM) So, every other year, huh? The alternative of going young and cheaper isn't really exciting to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Apr 21, 2011 -> 10:40 AM) The more I think about who we'd have to trade in the event of an actual firesale, the more nervous I get. Hopefully we just play better from here on out and even if we come up short on making the playoffs, we play well enough to convince JR and KW to keep the core together. You aren't excited to see the prospects we could get for John Danks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 21, 2011 -> 12:15 PM) You aren't excited to see the prospects we could get for John Danks? I think he means that he doesn't want to see the package that KW would get for Danks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Apr 21, 2011 -> 12:22 PM) I think he means that he doesn't want to see the package that KW would get for Danks. That was my sarcastic way of saying that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 An NL GM (Sandy Alderson) who's not much of a believer in the bunt...we know this won't be Ozzie's next landing spot now Which brings us to Wednesday night’s game, when catcher Josh Thole bunted with none out and Jose Reyes aboard in the ninth. Alderson dislikes bunts. They waste the game’s most precious commodity: an out. Here, the Mets gave up two outs when Thole popped into a double play. “I think if you probably talk to Terry, he’ll tell you the same thing,” Alderson said. “That wasn’t necessarily a standard approach for him in that situation. Alderson did not feel it was necessary to talk to manager Terry Collins about the decision. He believes those under him deserve latitude. If an over-reliance on bunting occurred — i.e. a leadoff single regularly followed by a bunt from a position player — then he would intervene. One incident did not alarm him. “I try to not to express it in the context of a play that didn’t go well, immediately afterward,” Alderson said. R.A. Dickey sparked something resembling a brush fire Wednesday night, when he said that his team needed to stop grousing about how much talent they had and begin making changes. Alderson had no problem with that sentiment. “I think that was very candid and heartfelt,” Alderson said. “I was happy to hear it coming from a player.” www.nj.com/sports Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 A firesale rids you of your high priced guys. Who are the Sox going to dump where other teams will be willing to take the contract and actually give you something useful? Dunn? No. Rios? No. Konerko? No. AJP? No. Ramirez? No, the Sox won't trade him. Pierre? No. Buehrle? No. Jackson? Probably not. Thornton? No, unless he picks it up. The only guys you really could deal and get something decent for are Danks, Floyd and probably Quentin who seems to be back. but then you are still stuck with a roster full of guys with bloated contracts where you have to take the stance they will bounce back next season meaning guys like Danks, Floydand Quentin have to be replaced, not in 5 years, but immediately. That will cost any money you are saving and then some. I really doubt there's a firesale if the losing continues, although I truly believe the losing won't continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 06:36 AM) A firesale rids you of your high priced guys. Who are the Sox going to dump where other teams will be willing to take the contract and actually give you something useful? Dunn? No. Rios? No. Konerko? No. AJP? No. Ramirez? No, the Sox won't trade him. Pierre? No. Buehrle? No. Jackson? Probably not. Thornton? No, unless he picks it up. The only guys you really could deal and get something decent for are Danks, Floyd and probably Quentin who seems to be back. but then you are still stuck with a roster full of guys with bloated contracts where you have to take the stance they will bounce back next season meaning guys like Danks, Floydand Quentin have to be replaced, not in 5 years, but immediately. That will cost any money you are saving and then some. I really doubt there's a firesale if the losing continues, although I truly believe the losing won't continue. Oh come on now, Dick...There would be interest in Dunn, Jackson, Mark and Thornton. Konerko, you'd probably have to eat some salary, and possibly some with Dunn, but there would be some interest. Especially with Edwin/Mark/Thornton. The Indians traded Casey Blake to the Dodgers for Carlos Santana a few years ago. If you moved 6-7 of those players, including Danks/Floyd/Quentin, you'd likely bring in 15-20 young guys, with probably 5 of them being pretty high upside. I'm not going to argue that you could field a competitve team right away, but in a few years you could definitely look up and have a very nice young core. Edited April 23, 2011 by iamshack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 06:42 AM) Oh come on now, Dick...There would be interest in Dunn, Jackson, Mark and Thornton. Konerko, you'd probably have to eat some salary, and possibly some with Dunn, but there would be some interest. Especially with Edwin/Mark/Thornton. The Indians traded Casey Blake to the Dodgers for Carlos Santana a few years ago. If you moved 6-7 of those players, including Danks/Floyd/Quentin, you'd likely bring in 15-20 young guys, with probably 5 of them being pretty high upside. I'm not going to argue that you could field a competitve team right away, but in a few years you could definitely look up and have a very nice young core. Jackson and Buehrle make a lot of money and are free agents at the end of the year. You aren't going to get much for them. Thornton hasn't been very good and just signed a decent sized extension, as my post stated if he doesn't turn it around, good luck getting anything for him. Konerko has full no trade protection and the teams he would play for the Angels, Dodgers, DBacks and possibly Padres can't or won't or don't have room to take his contract. You think someone wants Dunn's contract and is willing to give you prospects in exchange? Again, good luck with that. And besides if the Sox traded Dunn, Jackson, Buerhle, Thornton, Konerko, Danks, Floyd and Quentin and got the 5 high upside prospects and 10-15 other prospects you suggest, I would say 5 years is minimum until they are .500, possibly longer. Tropicana Field will look like Wrigley Field in the middle of July compared to USCF. The crying poor from 35th and Shields would actually be legit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 06:02 AM) Jackson and Buehrle make a lot of money and are free agents at the end of the year. You aren't going to get much for them. Thornton hasn't been very good and just signed a decent sized extension, as my post stated if he doesn't turn it around, good luck getting anything for him. Konerko has full no trade protection and the teams he would play for the Angels, Dodgers, DBacks and possibly Padres can't or won't or don't have room to take his contract. You think someone wants Dunn's contract and is willing to give you prospects in exchange? Again, good luck with that. And besides if the Sox traded Dunn, Jackson, Buerhle, Thornton, Konerko, Danks, Floyd and Quentin and got the 5 high upside prospects and 10-15 other prospects you suggest, I would say 5 years is minimum until they are .500, possibly longer. Tropicana Field will look like Wrigley Field in the middle of July compared to USCF. The crying poor from 35th and Shields would actually be legit. I forgot about Mark's contract kicker, so that could be a problem. If Jackson posts a 3.5 ERA and the acquiring team only has to pay him $4 million or so, yes, I think you'd get a very solid prospect in return. Dunn has a heck of a track record and I don't think his contract would provide much of a barrier, but yeah, you might have to hold on to him for a year or so and then deal him. Thornton has been one of the best setup men in the league for a few years now. I don't think the contract extension really would scare many teams away. Danks/Floyd/Quentin would probably be the biggest draws, and I think the haul would be pretty decent, along with Jackson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I think you'd have to cut the difference in the middle. It all comes down to what you can get back for Danks and Quentin based on his hot start. You have to find the right matches with teams needing pitching (easier) than someone needing a defense-limited corner OFer/DH in CQ. Ramirez and Beckham, logically, wouldn't be traded....although I can see some arguing that Ramirez will be out of his prime by the time the team's competitive again. You could definitely shop him, but I doubt they want to go back to Beckham at SS, it would have to be Escobar or another prospect we acquire, and that severely puts a crimp in the offense. Jackson could get you something back in return, definitely. Floyd, as well. Buehrle, Konerko and Dunn, not so much. You're still left with all those contracts like Rios, Peavy, Pierre, Teahen, AJ, Crain, etc., that aren't going anywhere regardless, so the end result is just cosmetic and it's hard to totally rebuild even if you want to. Trading Sale, Santos or even Thornton (after his slow start)? None of those are logical moves, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 (edited) C C Sabatthia who is far greater than any of the Sox pitchers in the final year of their contract, netted Matt LaPorta and Michael Brantley. You're better off keeping the draft picks. With Jackson and Buehrle off the books next year anyway, there is a built in firesale-like element with this roster. Edited April 23, 2011 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 07:10 AM) I forgot about Mark's contract kicker, so that could be a problem. If Jackson posts a 3.5 ERA and the acquiring team only has to pay him $4 million or so, yes, I think you'd get a very solid prospect in return. Dunn has a heck of a track record and I don't think his contract would provide much of a barrier, but yeah, you might have to hold on to him for a year or so and then deal him. Thornton has been one of the best setup men in the league for a few years now. I don't think the contract extension really would scare many teams away. Danks/Floyd/Quentin would probably be the biggest draws, and I think the haul would be pretty decent, along with Jackson. You're (the acquiring team) guaranteeing at least $12 million that Matt Thornton will get it back together again. How many teams out there could afford to take that risk? For a set-up guy? If you do manage to find a trading partner, you're not going to get much back in return, just a salary dump (which does have some value, except in putting a competitive team back out there as soon as possible, assuming the payroll would consequently take a huge hit again). If we traded him anytime in the last 2-3 seasons, with his bargain contract, we could have gotten back a good haul, but the devil's in the timing. Otherwise, we could have gotten something back for Jenks or Crede. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 07:21 AM) You're (the acquiring team) guaranteeing at least $12 million that Matt Thornton will get it back together again. How many teams out there could afford to take that risk? For a set-up guy? If you do manage to find a trading partner, you're not going to get much back in return, just a salary dump (which does have some value, except in putting a competitive team back out there as soon as possible, assuming the payroll would consequently take a huge hit again). If we traded him anytime in the last 2-3 seasons, with his bargain contract, we could have gotten back a good haul, but the devil's in the timing. Otherwise, we could have gotten something back for Jenks or Crede. If iamshack were a GM, he'd be one of KW's 5 favs on his cellphone. Edited April 23, 2011 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Apr 23, 2011 -> 07:20 AM) C C Sabatthia who is far greater than any of the Sox pitchers in the final year of their contract, netted Matt LaPorta and Michael Brantley. You're better off keeping the draft picks. With Jackson and Buehrle off the books next year anyway, there is a built in firesale-like element with this roster. Hindsight makes that trade look completely different. At the time that was a huge haul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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