southsider2k5 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:14 AM) Humber should NOT be included in this evaluation. He was developed by the Sox outside of this trade, and if they liked him enough beforehand then they would've kept him anyways. And no, Frasor/Stewart is crap value for Hudson/Holmberg. Stewart was higher rated than Hudson at the same point of their careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:47 AM) Stewart was higher rated than Hudson at the same point of their careers. Hudson had better numbers and had shown he can succeed in the bigs (limited time in 2009, and flashed his stuff in 2010). Stewart was a reliever for a few years before being converted, and hasn't really seen great success. So yes, some people rated Stewart higher, but Hudson easily could have much great value and I'm almost positive he did/does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:03 AM) It's going to be either this or the Swisher trade, but it comes up in every thread around here. It's done with. I hope somehow Zach Stewart becomes awesome just so I don't have to hear the name Dan Hudson ever again. Definitely the Swisher trade. I just think he was demonized by either Ozzie or Kenny, maybe both. The fact Kenny gave up so little points to both. I don't know what it is about this organization and maybe JR needs to shake up this whole organization, but it seems players come here and they regress. Not all of it has to deal with age. Swisher was an example. Adam Dunn has the worst season ever. Even Mark Teahen. Maybe that just as much a reason to fire Ozzie. He might be a more flamboyant version of Dusty. As much of a critc I am of Cooper, he may be the most valuable person in the organization. It's also time for Kenny to stop investing in mental projects. This is the last organization I think any player should go to needing a change of scenery. This is where you go to rot and be less valuable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:06 AM) Hudson had better numbers and had shown he can succeed in the bigs (limited time in 2009, and flashed his stuff in 2010). Stewart was a reliever for a few years before being converted, and hasn't really seen great success. So yes, some people rated Stewart higher, but Hudson easily could have much great value and I'm almost positive he did/does. He has shown it now. the reality is if you look at it from the day of the trades' perspective. Stewart is higher rated than Hudson was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 02:30 PM) He has shown it now. the reality is if you look at it from the day of the trades' perspective. Stewart is higher rated than Hudson was. But had been a reliever for 2-3 seasons already, so that doesn't mean he had more VALUE. For example, I wouldn't have traded Hudson for Drew Storen because Hudson is a starter and has more value than a reliever, albeit a good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 02:34 PM) But had been a reliever for 2-3 seasons already, so that doesn't mean he had more VALUE. For example, I wouldn't have traded Hudson for Drew Storen because Hudson is a starter and has more value than a reliever, albeit a good one. Stewart isn't a reliever anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 02:37 PM) Stewart isn't a reliever anymore. And Hudson is an above average starter in the bigs now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 04:37 PM) And Hudson is an above average starter in the bigs now.... Again I am making the comparison of their places at the time each of the trades was made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 04:37 PM) And Hudson is an above average starter in the bigs now.... who got hit and lost to the Padres at Petco. Weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjshoe04 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 05:37 PM) who got hit and lost to the Padres at Petco. Weak. He even got some run support via a Brandon Allen homer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 06:51 PM) He even got some run support via a Brandon Allen homer. That Brandon Allen homer knocked in Chris Young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjshoe04 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 08:32 PM) That Brandon Allen homer knocked in Chris Young. It's a shame Clayton Richard didn't start for the Padres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Looks like Hudson is about to pitch his Diamondbacks into a first place tie by going into San Francisco and beating Tim Lincecum. 8 innings, 6 hits, 1 run, 1 bb, 5 k Got a hit and a walk too. Batting .326 this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 QUOTE (flavum @ Aug 3, 2011 -> 04:26 AM) Looks like Hudson is about to pitch his Diamondbacks into a first place tie by going into San Francisco and beating Tim Lincecum. 8 innings, 6 hits, 1 run, 1 bb, 5 k Got a hit and a walk too. Batting .326 this season. He's just a really good pitcher. The trade has never seemed worse than it does this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 02:30 PM) He has shown it now. the reality is if you look at it from the day of the trades' perspective. Stewart is higher rated than Hudson was.Hudson was rated #55 in Baseball Prospectus' top 100 for 2010 and #66 by Baseball America. Stewart failled to make either list in 2011, the only prospect evaluater that I've even seen rave about Stewart is Law putting him at #44, Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus doesn't even think he's a starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulstar Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 2, 2011 -> 11:27 PM) He's just a really good pitcher. The trade has never seemed worse than it does this week. The ironic part is that he has not only out produced Edwin, he has outproduced Rios, Dunn, Morel, and Beckham with the bat. Edited August 3, 2011 by Paulstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 QUOTE (Paulstar @ Aug 3, 2011 -> 05:49 AM) The ironic part is that he has not only out produced Edwin, he has outproduced Rios, Dunn, Morel, and Beckham with the bat. Post of the century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 QUOTE (flavum @ Aug 2, 2011 -> 11:26 PM) Looks like Hudson is about to pitch his Diamondbacks into a first place tie by going into San Francisco and beating Tim Lincecum. 8 innings, 6 hits, 1 run, 1 bb, 5 k Got a hit and a walk too. Batting .326 this season. Sorry, but we only count games vs. ML offenses that aren't in giant parks. (Beltran not withstanding) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 3, 2011 -> 08:06 AM) Sorry, but we only count games vs. ML offenses that aren't in giant parks. (Beltran not withstanding) So the 2010 Giants WS doesn't count? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Aug 3, 2011 -> 09:08 AM) So the 2010 Giants WS doesn't count? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 How to turn Edwin Jackson into Cris Carpenter.... 1. Make Edwin Jackson a little worse. Carpenter and Jackson each begin their Cardinals story at 27, but Jackson, who's been around since he outdueled Randy Johnson as a teenager, has managed to fit more disappointment and success into those early years. Jackson's put together one-and-a-half bad seasons and three-and-a-half solid ones, and more importantly for our perception of him at 27 he's put them together in the right order--after a few years as an ex-prospect in the post-Unit wilderness he turned into a reliably average type in a hurry. Carpenter the Blue Jay never looked right twice in a row after emerging as a solid starter in his first two full seasons. after 320 above-average innings in 1998 and 1999 Carpenter led the league in earned runs in 2000, recovered in 2001, and then faltered again in 2002, never quite escaping the impression he was striking out fewer it looked like he should. If 27-year-old starters can still be talked about in the language of prospects, that Chris Carpenter was a year or two behind Jackson on the developmental curve, and didn't have a no-hitter or any ESPN hype to show for it. 3. Now, tear up his arm. Jackson, despite throwing nearly four million pitches in a single no-hitter, has passed through the Pitcher Injury Nightmare Zone without requiring major surgery. Not so for Carpenter, who made 30 starts once in four tries with the Blue Jays and left Toronto with considerably less labrum than he'd brought through immigration. By 2002 Carpenter's shoulder had finally had enough, and despite the Cardnials' vague intimations about his pitching in 2003 he was a lost cause by midseason. So--having made Edwin Jackson worse and given him a career-ending injury, we've successfully turned him into Chris Carpenter the Blue Jay. Now we just need to make it so he wins the Cy Young Award sometime in the next two years! 4. Make him live up to his strikeout potential. Carpenter is a big guy who throws hard and has an I'm-a-big-guy-who-throws-hard curveball, but his numbers as a Blue Jay look a little like what you might see from a successful junkballer. As a Cardinal he added a full strikeout per nine innings to his previous career high. So that's the first thing we need from Jackson. 5. Make him into one of the league's best control pitchers. Oh, yeah--this is the other thing! After you make Jackson into the firebreathing strikeout king he resembles, you'll want to change him into a different pitcher entirely. Carpenter walked 3.4 batters per nine innings in Toronto, and 4.3 in the minors. With the Cardinals, between 2004 and 2006: 1.9. You're following, right? Write this next one down-- 6. Tear up his arm again. More shoulder problems! And some elbow problems, just while you're digging around in there. Toss in two false-start comebacks, and then, when people are writing "If we get anything out of Edwin Jackson you'd have to consider it a bonus, at this point" articles from the "blog entry about Mark Mulder" template in iWork, 7. Repeat the whole thing. Carpenter's start Monday was a to-scale reproduction of his 2011 to date; he looked like Chris Carpenter the entire time but drowned, eventually, in bloop singles. I'd be worried about it, except--he's Chris Carpenter. Who expected one strikeout, or 50 strikeouts, or 500 or 1000? Who expects 200 more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scenario Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 02:34 PM) But had been a reliever for 2-3 seasons already, so that doesn't mean he had more VALUE. For example, I wouldn't have traded Hudson for Drew Storen because Hudson is a starter and has more value than a reliever, albeit a good one. The issue determining whether Stewart can be a MLB starter is going to be the quality/consistency of his changeup. Same issue that Hudson had when he was drafted by the Sox. Reports from Toronto suggest that it has come a long way which is why he is considered a legit starter candidate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 2, 2011 -> 11:27 PM) He's just a really good pitcher. The trade has never seemed worse than it does this week. He is pretty good. I still think his mechanics are going to be his undoing as his shoulder tears apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 3, 2011 -> 10:58 AM) He is pretty good. I still think his mechanics are going to be his undoing as his shoulder tears apart. Couldn't agree with this more. As much as I like Hudson, his mechanics look terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 So I saw Hudson had a twitter, so I decided to tweet him that Sox fans wish he was still on the roster. He actually replied back: DHuddy41 Daniel Hudson @ @joshwolff22 sorry bro! Maybe if I would have gotten more of a chance! Things happen for a reason though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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