MLB Attendance problem? (KC, CLE, Cubs, NY teams)

[caulfield12]

The greatest concern for baseball should be in Cleveland and Kansas City, where teams have done well but the city doesn’t seem to care. The Indians are 12-5, but the crowds are down 5.3 percent, thanks to four games where less than 10,000 fans showed up. Kansas City is 11-6 and has seen its crowds decline by a whopping 16.8 percent, including last Thursday against Seattle where 8,811 people were counted.

 

And what in the world is going on in Chicago, where the loveable losers can’t even fill up Wrigley? The 16 percent drop through the Chicago Cubs’ first seven home games is hard to believe.

 

 

For the record, so far, with the unbearable weather and 4 game road losing streak...the White Sox are off 1.5% so far.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AlIA..._problem_042111

Edited April 22, 2011 by caulfield12

[Harry Chappas]

I bet the season ticket base for all of these teams are about what the announced attendance is.

 

Nobody walks up in April and there is little presale in these cities for April games agasint divisional teams or crappy teams.

 

You roll the Yanks or Boston through here in April and you will get a big crowd, yet somehow our schdule always has them coming to town in the summer.

[High Mileage]

I don't believe there is much (if any) concern about attendance here in KC. The organization pretty much waived the white flag on the '11 season with all of the talk about 2012 and our farm system. Moving Greinke and DeJesus surely didn't help either.

 

Last year, there was at least some expectation that they'd be able to contend (I know right), and despite our "hot" 12-7 start, people are still waiting for the team to come back down to it's expectations this year and/or waiting until June for the prospect(s) to get here. It also seems like we've played a lot of day games already this year...

[caulfield12]

You're right.

 

I guess a lot of it is the disappointment with losing the 2009 Cy Young version of Greinke. That was easily worth another 7500-12500 fans per night. The "Roy Halladay Effect" that you also saw in Toronto.

 

Those same fans had already lost Mike Sweeney as their idol due to injuries and aging (they chose the wrong player to hold onto, and for too long), and DeJesus was more of an enigma than the second coming of Johnny Damon with KC fans.

 

Maybe the 3rd factor is that the formerly overhyped and "new face" of the franchise, Alex Gordon, was in danger of finding himself on another team heading into this spring.

 

And then the Chiefs are back as a contending team again, so that might be yet another factor.

Edited April 22, 2011 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

The greatest concern for baseball should be in Cleveland and Kansas City, where teams have done well but the city doesn’t seem to care. The Indians are 12-5, but the crowds are down 5.3 percent, thanks to four games where less than 10,000 fans showed up. Kansas City is 11-6 and has seen its crowds decline by a whopping 16.8 percent, including last Thursday against Seattle where 8,811 people were counted.

 

And what in the world is going on in Chicago, where the loveable losers can’t even fill up Wrigley? The 16 percent drop through the Chicago Cubs’ first seven home games is hard to believe.

 

 

For the record, so far, with the unbearable weather and 4 game road losing streak...the White Sox are off 1.5% so far.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AlIA..._problem_042111

The weather is killing the Cubs as well.

[Steve9347]

This is dumb. The weather has been abnormally atrocious for baseball, while the Indians have had 3 home games since their opening week surprise... not much of a sample size there.

[southsider2k5]

I bet the season ticket base for all of these teams are about what the announced attendance is.

 

Nobody walks up in April and there is little presale in these cities for April games agasint divisional teams or crappy teams.

 

You roll the Yanks or Boston through here in April and you will get a big crowd, yet somehow our schdule always has them coming to town in the summer.

 

These numbers are year over year. They are comparing April 2010 versus April 2011.

[caulfield12]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/sort/allAvg

 

For the sake of JR's "All In", this trend can't continue simply because the White Sox are last in all of MLB in terms of "average" attendance, counting home and road games.

 

Of course, a big factor in that is our playing in Cleveland for 3 games and TB for 4, but it's still a bit surprising that we're dead last.

 

 

OVERALL MLB Attendance, average of home and road games

2005 13th

2006 10th (year after World Series win)

2007 13th

2008 18th

2009 15th (after playoff appearance)

2010 21st

2011 30th (VERY SMALL SAMPLE SIZE)

 

Also, the "holdover" effects of a World Series victory are generally predicted by sports marketing experts to extend out to five years.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2011 by caulfield12

[High Mileage]

You're right.

 

I guess a lot of it is the disappointment with losing the 2009 Cy Young version of Greinke. That was easily worth another 7500-12500 fans per night. The "Roy Halladay Effect" that you also saw in Toronto.

 

Those same fans had already lost Mike Sweeney as their idol due to injuries and aging (they chose the wrong player to hold onto, and for too long), and DeJesus was more of an enigma than the second coming of Johnny Damon with KC fans.

 

Maybe the 3rd factor is that the formerly overhyped and "new face" of the franchise, Alex Gordon, was in danger of finding himself on another team heading into this spring.

 

And then the Chiefs are back as a contending team again, so that might be yet another factor.

All very valid points.

 

I think with most casual fans, they look at it as another Jermaine Dye-for-Neifi Perez or Johnny Damon-for-Angel Berroa. Trading a star player for somebody they've never heard of. With diehard fans, I think most of them feel the way that I do, that it sucks to lose a guy like Zack, but at the same time it had to be done because of his words and actions, obviously the jury is still out on that deal and will be for years.

 

They knew they weren't going to be able to keep (afford) Sweeney, Dye, and Damon. Keeping all three was going to be a huge risk, as the farm system and the rest of the big league roster was pretty bare anyways. We also didn't have an actual owner at the time either. As far as Sweeney, the Royals were just bit by bad luck. The man had just made 3 consecutive All-Star Games and had hit .340/.417/.563, and it's hard to fault a guy for injuries.

 

And I also hadn't thought about the weather, it's been cold, raining a lot (and very, very windy) here...

[Dick Allen]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance/_/sort/allAvg

 

For the sake of JR's "All In", this trend can't continue simply because the White Sox are last in all of MLB in terms of "average" attendance, counting home and road games.

 

Of course, a big factor in that is our playing in Cleveland for 3 games and TB for 4, but it's still a bit surprising that we're dead last.

 

 

OVERALL MLB Attendance, average of home and road games

2005 13th

2006 10th (year after World Series win)

2007 13th

2008 18th

2009 15th (after playoff appearance)

2010 21st

2011 30th (VERY SMALL SAMPLE SIZE)

 

Also, the "holdover" effects of a World Series victory are generally predicted by sports marketing experts to extend out to five years.

 

Yes, I always noticed they have been an average or below average draw on the road for years. Its really impossible to say why. I do believe the visiting team does get a small percentage of the gate.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

All very valid points.

 

I think with most casual fans, they look at it as another Jermaine Dye-for-Neifi Perez or Johnny Damon-for-Angel Berroa. Trading a star player for somebody they've never heard of. With diehard fans, I think most of them feel the way that I do, that it sucks to lose a guy like Zack, but at the same time it had to be done because of his words and actions, obviously the jury is still out on that deal and will be for years.

 

They knew they weren't going to be able to keep (afford) Sweeney, Dye, and Damon. Keeping all three was going to be a huge risk, as the farm system and the rest of the big league roster was pretty bare anyways. We also didn't have an actual owner at the time either. As far as Sweeney, the Royals were just bit by bad luck. The man had just made 3 consecutive All-Star Games and had hit .340/.417/.563, and it's hard to fault a guy for injuries.

 

And I also hadn't thought about the weather, it's been cold, raining a lot (and very, very windy) here...

Do you know the White Sox almost acquired Sweeney from KC as a catcher before he became the prolific hitter he became? They traded for Fordyce instead.

[High Mileage]

Do you know the White Sox almost acquired Sweeney from KC as a catcher before he became the prolific hitter he became? They traded for Fordyce instead.

You learn something new everyday.

 

[caulfield12]

All very valid points.

 

I think with most casual fans, they look at it as another Jermaine Dye-for-Neifi Perez or Johnny Damon-for-Angel Berroa. Trading a star player for somebody they've never heard of. With diehard fans, I think most of them feel the way that I do, that it sucks to lose a guy like Zack, but at the same time it had to be done because of his words and actions, obviously the jury is still out on that deal and will be for years.

 

They knew they weren't going to be able to keep (afford) Sweeney, Dye, and Damon. Keeping all three was going to be a huge risk, as the farm system and the rest of the big league roster was pretty bare anyways. We also didn't have an actual owner at the time either. As far as Sweeney, the Royals were just bit by bad luck. The man had just made 3 consecutive All-Star Games and had hit .340/.417/.563, and it's hard to fault a guy for injuries.

 

And I also hadn't thought about the weather, it's been cold, raining a lot (and very, very windy) here...

 

 

I blame it all on not keeping Rey Sanchez and Jose Rosado going down with injuries!!! Long live Dos Carlos (Febles and Beltran)!!!

 

In actuality, White Sox and Royals fans are very similar. They pretty much refuse to support below average baseball...with the fact that KC probably still gets more "casual" fans even with atrocious teams for weekend games than the White Sox because of the difference in pricing points.

 

With the White Sox having the fourth most expensive ticket price/parking, they simply HAVE to put a good product on the field.

 

Too many Royals fans started to believe (that was the motto, if I remember, from Tony Pena) in that team and then it quickly fell apart after the All Star break and yet more hearts that had been suffering for 15 years were torn out.

 

The other thing that really hurt was Buck and Teahen not panning out with the Royals. Of course, Buck's gone on to a huge contract since and luckily our GM took Mark Teahen off your hands.

 

For that, you have Chris Getz's consistent .636/.637 OPS, Podsednik, Josh Fields and Brian Anderson. And we'll even throw in Wilson Betemit, who managed to kill the White Sox last year, of course. Him and that darned Callaspo. And Aviles.

Edited April 22, 2011 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

I blame it all on not keeping Rey Sanchez and Jose Rosado going down with injuries!!! Long live Dos Carlos (Febles and Beltran)!!!

 

In actuality, White Sox and Royals fans are very similar. They pretty much refuse to support below average baseball...with the fact that KC probably still gets more "casual" fans even with atrocious teams for weekend games than the White Sox because of the difference in pricing points.

 

With the White Sox having the fourth most expensive ticket price/parking, they simply HAVE to put a good product on the field.

 

Too many Royals fans started to believe (that was the motto, if I remember, from Tony Pena) in that team and then it quickly fell apart after the All Star break and yet more hearts that had been suffering for 15 years were torn out.

 

The other thing that really hurt was Buck and Teahen not panning out with the Royals. Of course, Buck's gone on to a huge contract since and luckily our GM took Mark Teahen off your hands.

 

For that, you have Chris Getz's consistent .636/.637 OPS, Podsednik, Josh Fields and Brian Anderson. And we'll even throw in Wilson Betemit, who managed to kill the White Sox last year, of course. Him and that darned Callaspo. And Aviles.

KC used to have the highest payroll in baseball back around 1990. They have been bad for so long after really being a model franchise.

[caulfield12]

KC used to have the highest payroll in baseball back around 1990. They have been bad for so long after really being a model franchise.

 

 

Which had everything to do with Ewing Kauffman dying and his eventually being replaced by Mr. Wal-Mart.

 

While he might have been a good businessman, the Royals fans have never come close to the same feelings of affection and adulation. Of course, a lot of that has to do with the decades of the 70's and 80's for Royals' baseball.

 

But Glass is believed to be the anti-Kauffman by most.

 

 

[High Mileage]

KC used to have the highest payroll in baseball back around 1990. They have been bad for so long after really being a model franchise.

Yep, right around the time John Schuerholz left to take over the Braves, "leading" them to a 94-68 record and an NL pennant a year after they went 65-97.

Which had everything to do with Ewing Kauffman dying and his eventually being replaced by Mr. Wal-Mart.

 

While he might have been a good businessman, the Royals fans have never come close to the same feelings of affection and adulation. Of course, a lot of that has to do with the decades of the 70's and 80's for Royals' baseball.

 

But Glass is believed to be the anti-Kauffman by most.

You're pretty much dead on. Kauffman brought baseball back to KC (after the A's moved to Oakland) and was very big in the community/region. Glass and family are rarely seen at Royals games, and they don't even keep a home in the area (well, in Arkansas they do).

 

Glass either couldn't or wouldn't spend his first few years of ownership. The best thing he's done for the organization was hiring Dayton Moore and staying out of actual baseball decisions. Obviously the results have been limited on the field, but he has funded our Draft (we've spent more than anybody since '06) and International Scouting (we've spent more than everybody except the Pirates since '06, IIRC) as well as front office expansion. Out of sight, out of mind. Just keep writing the checks, Old Man...

[caulfield12]

Yep, right around the time John Schuerholz left to take over the Braves, "leading" them to a 94-68 record and an NL pennant a year after they went 65-97.

 

You're pretty much dead on. Kauffman brought baseball back to KC (after the A's moved to Oakland) and was very big in the community/region. Glass and family are rarely seen at Royals games, and they don't even keep a home in the area (well, in Arkansas they do).

 

Glass either couldn't or wouldn't spend his first few years of ownership. The best thing he's done for the organization was hiring Dayton Moore and staying out of actual baseball decisions. Obviously the results have been limited on the field, but he has funded our Draft (we've spent more than anybody since '06) and International Scouting (we've spent more than everybody except the Pirates since '06, IIRC) as well as front office expansion. Out of sight, out of mind. Just keep writing the checks, Old Man...

 

 

I'll give Glass credit for trying to establish some "legitimacy" in the FA market by going after Meche. And give Meche credit for retiring when he could have just continued to collect a paycheck.

 

But the last couple of years, blending in the Guillens and Ankiels and Podsedniks, it just hasn't worked. On the other hand, they had to throw some journeymen out there to protect the youngsters from being overexposed before they were ready for the major league team.

 

Even spending on Willie Bloomquist, Juan Cruz and Kyle Farnsworth....those are the kind of players who are complementary on a playoff contending team, but a waste of payroll for the Royals.

 

I still remember how enthusiastic Posnanski tried to be when they brought in Hillman from Japan. Well, maybe they'll get it straightened out eventually.

 

 

[High Mileage]

I'll give Glass credit for trying to establish some "legitimacy" in the FA market by going after Meche. And give Meche credit for retiring when he could have just continued to collect a paycheck.

 

But the last couple of years, blending in the Guillens and Ankiels and Podsedniks, it just hasn't worked. On the other hand, they had to throw some journeymen out there to protect the youngsters from being overexposed before they were ready for the major league team.

 

Even spending on Willie Bloomquist, Juan Cruz and Kyle Farnsworth....those are the kind of players who are complementary on a playoff contending team, but a waste of payroll for the Royals.

 

I still remember how enthusiastic Posnanski tried to be when they brought in Hillman from Japan. Well, maybe they'll get it straightened out eventually.

Uhhhh yeah, Gil Meche=better man than I am. Glass has showed he's willing to spend money, but that doesn't mean they've been able to get the right guys to take it. Guillen's contract was terrible, most people knew it at the time. Moore overpaid after losing out on both Torii Hunter and Andrew Jones that off-season. Other guys we went after but did not get: Rafael Furcal, Orlando Hudson, Carlos Silva (whew!), Ted Lilly, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few others.

 

I didn't mind Farnsworth so much, he wasn't completely atrocious here and along with Rick Ankiel, who was injured 90% of his time here, brought us Tim Collins (among others) from the Braves. I like how we came out on that deal already, and Collins has thrown a whole 10 innings. I liked Pods, thought he was pretty good in his time here.

 

As for Hillman, a lot of people thought it was a great hire. I remember at the time, a lot of Royals people were hoping for Frank White or Terry Pendleton...

[caulfield12]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/larr...49_stone17.html

 

Good in-depth article on the Mariners and the possibility they'll be under the 2 million attendance mark for the first time in Safeco's history.

 

White Sox fans looking at our future fate in a true rebuilding/transition period, it's undoubtedly somewhere between 1.3 million and 1.6 million in attendance for half a decade.

 

 

[Balta1701]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/larr...49_stone17.html

 

Good in-depth article on the Mariners and the possibility they'll be under the 2 million attendance mark for the first time in Safeco's history.

 

White Sox fans looking at our future fate in a true rebuilding/transition period, it's undoubtedly somewhere between 1.3 million and 1.6 million in attendance for half a decade.

The last time the White Sox drew under 1.6 million fans was 1999.

[caulfield12]

The last time the White Sox drew under 1.6 million fans was 1999.

 

And that's the last time we had a true rebuilding movement, in 1998 and 1999.

[Dick Allen]

And that's the last time we had a true rebuilding movement, in 1998 and 1999.

Rebuilding is a careful what you wish for deal. Believe me, if the Cubs had a good team and the Sox were losing 95 games but getting high draft picks, everyone who wants a total rebuild right now would be very unhappy. Losing is depressing and really sucks. I totally agree with where you predict attendance to fall if the Sox ever chose this route. I don't think they will, at least I hope they don't under the current regime, because they aren't the people who can get it done. There are very few who could get it done, and even fewer who could get it done quickly. You have to obviously know what you are drafting. Know what you are getting in trades and really get unbelievably lucky.

[T R U]

Rebuilding is a careful what you wish for deal. Believe me, if the Cubs had a good team and the Sox were losing 95 games but getting high draft picks, everyone who wants a total rebuild right now would be very unhappy. Losing is depressing and really sucks. I totally agree with where you predict attendance to fall if the Sox ever chose this route. I don't think they will, at least I hope they don't under the current regime, because they aren't the people who can get it done. There are very few who could get it done, and even fewer who could get it done quickly. You have to obviously know what you are drafting. Know what you are getting in trades and really get unbelievably lucky.

 

I am almost certain that there would be PLENTY of posters on this site who would be very happy if this team was losing 95 games a season as long as they had some hott spects to drool over.. at least that how it seems

[joeynach]

I think we can all put attendance talks into perspective from reading this article. Its basically states how actual ticket sales are far less important to teams revenues these days given the economics assoicated with many team owned regional sports networks, NESN, CSN, YES, etc. For those too lazy to read it basically breaks down what cable/satellite subscribers pay to teams to have their networks. Its something like each subscriber paying a few bucks a month and when you multiply that out its perhaps even more of a revenue makes than ticket sales, and its a static revenue maker.

 

http://deadspin.com/#!5789875/no-ones-...-isnt-concerned

[HuskyCaucasian]

The weather is killing the Cubs as well.

Weather throughout the midwest has royally (no pun intended) sucked this year.