Education bubble?

[NorthSideSox72]

All of the property tax money now gets sent to the state. The state the redistributes based on a per student dollar amount based on the make up of each school system. Systems with higher poverty, and higher special education numbers get a higher amount. Schools with lower populations get less. Last I knew schools in Gary were getting over $10k/yr/kid, while somewhere like Valpo was right about $7k/yr/kid

That is very different from Illinois, where a district like New Trier gets close to $20k per student, vs city schools in the same county getting half that or less.

 

[Controlled Chaos]

The answer to me is pretty simple. It's the out of wedlock birth rate. Fix that and you cure so many of this country's ails. Education and crime being at the top, but also depression, respect, obesity etc... This problem is rarely discussed and it should be of the highest priority for this country.

[NorthSideSox72]

The answer to me is pretty simple. It's the out of wedlock birth rate. Fix that and you cure so many of this country's ails. Education and crime being at the top, but also depression, respect, obesity etc... This problem is rarely discussed and it should be of the highest priority for this country.

Biggest problem? The rate of out of wedlock babies has been in decline for some time now, I thought (maybe I'm wrong - I'm sure someone will check - mayeb I am thinking of teen birth rates). And I'd suggest that having parents who later divorce, or are just dysfunctional, is just as bad or worse on kids, as opposed to single parenthood.

 

[southsider2k5]

And to be fair to parents, most of mine did not go to college, I'll bet less than half graduated from HS. So they have a harder time knowing what to do to help their own kids. But last year I had 105 students in four classes. In my Pre-Ap class, I met 100% of the parents at least once and probably 80% three or more times. In my lowest performing class, only 4 of 26 parents showed up for Open House or Meet the Teacher night. My situation wasn't unique. I wasn't certain which comes first, not interested in talking with the teacher or too many negative calls about their kid. I tried really hard to make every conversation with a parent positive so they would return my phone calls.

 

That is really common as well. They aren't taught that education is important, and more importantly, no one ever convinces them that it is there way to break the poverty cycle.

[iamshack]

Well, a very big part of it is that the rest of the world has raised the bar. We are worse relative to the world because the world has vastly improved while we have remained relatively stagnant due to the law of diminished returns.

 

But we need to focus on how to stay ahead of the curve, instead of being left in the dust.

[Harry Chappas]

I send my kids to a private school

 

I have a friend who has two kids there one kid is a C student the other has never received anything other than an A. It is the school's fault that the C studetn is a C student but the school gets no credit for the A student.

 

[bmags]

So what's your solution in Tex' scenario? Where everything is already in place to give the kid a chance at an education, even more so than the average student. But at the end of the day the student doesn't want to be there. Throwing more money into the school system isn't gonna change that. So what's your solution? And how can you honestly think that other distractions don't play a part in this?

 

I'm not sure, as to tex's part. Throwing them out certainly would probably improve the rest in the classroom, but it also creates a huge barrier for that student. I'm not sure whether it is considered throwing money at them. I imagine those drop outs become a high percentage of those we consider burdens to the state. There have been success stories with alternative schools created by community peer groups for dropouts and disruptive students that have been controversial in theory, but beneficial in practice.

 

And I'm not saying other distractions don't play a part in it, but I do consider focusing on those useless. Unless we are going to ban video games and cell phones, I don't see how that should be the focal point. This study shows that it aims to insert teachers into the culture of the neighborhood too. I'm mindful of what Tex said about how much we expect out of teachers, but if there are problems at home focusing a group of teachers to disrupt those patterns is an interesting idea.

[iamshack]

I'm not sure, as to tex's part. Throwing them out certainly would probably improve the rest in the classroom, but it also creates a huge barrier for that student. I'm not sure whether it is considered throwing money at them. I imagine those drop outs become a high percentage of those we consider burdens to the state. There have been success stories with alternative schools created by community peer groups for dropouts and disruptive students that have been controversial in theory, but beneficial in practice.

 

And I'm not saying other distractions don't play a part in it, but I do consider focusing on those useless. Unless we are going to ban video games and cell phones, I don't see how that should be the focal point. This study shows that it aims to insert teachers into the culture of the neighborhood too. I'm mindful of what Tex said about how much we expect out of teachers, but if there are problems at home focusing a group of teachers to disrupt those patterns is an interesting idea.

So if I am interpreting this correctly, you are saying these students need more attention than they are currently receiving, and that requires more funding, but you are not sure as to what kind of program you would recommend?

[Controlled Chaos]

Biggest problem? The rate of out of wedlock babies has been in decline for some time now, I thought (maybe I'm wrong - I'm sure someone will check - mayeb I am thinking of teen birth rates). And I'd suggest that having parents who later divorce, or are just dysfunctional, is just as bad or worse on kids, as opposed to single parenthood.

 

yeah IMO it's one of the biggest problems facing this country. I agree that children of parents who divorce can be just as dysfunctional. It's more about a fatherless home than anything. Only data I can find is this from 2009, "41% of children born in the USA were born to unmarried mothers (up from 5% a half-century ago). That includes 73% of non-Hispanic black children, 53% of Hispanic children and 29% of non-Hispanic white children." So take that 41% and add in the children of divorce and it's probably more than half of US homes without fathers. Here's some statistics on children from fatherless homes...some are old, but I doubt things are improving. http://fatherhood.about.com/od/fathersrigh...ss_children.htm

 

So for me it all comes back to that....I figure this is understood, but I'll add it here anyway....I'm not saying some children don't overcome...just odds are stacked against them. A big thing is even if the father isn't in the home...he needs to be very active in their life. But I think a lot of our problems can be traced back to family upbringing.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Controlled Chaos

[bigruss]

yeah IMO it's one of the biggest problems facing this country. I agree that children of parents who divorce can be just as dysfunctional. It's more about a fatherless home than anything. Only data I can find is this from 2009, "41% of children born in the USA were born to unmarried mothers (up from 5% a half-century ago). That includes 73% of non-Hispanic black children, 53% of Hispanic children and 29% of non-Hispanic white children." So take that 41% and add in the children of divorce and it's probably more than half of US homes without fathers. Here's some statistics on children from fatherless homes...some are old, but I doubt things are improving. http://fatherhood.about.com/od/fathersrigh...ss_children.htm

 

So for me it all comes back to that.

Just because you aren't married doesn't mean you don't have a father. And just because you have a father doesn't mean you are growing up in a functional family atmosphere.

[Balta1701]

Just because you aren't married doesn't mean you don't have a father. And just because you have a father doesn't mean you are growing up in a functional family atmosphere.

Now we're at the game of picking out variables though. Here's at least one study I found testing various family structures, and in general, the father and mother present situation beats out all of the others on child performance, although multi-generational households pick up the gap in those cases (i.e. father is gone but grandparents are present).

 

The real game is figuring out which came first, the poverty or the broken homes or the poor educational performance or the poverty which comes from it?

[Jenksismyhero]

So if I am interpreting this correctly, you are saying these students need more attention than they are currently receiving, and that requires more funding, but you are not sure as to what kind of program you would recommend?

 

On top of the fact that even if you were to create and adequately fund such a program, the kids we're talking about won't show up anyway.

 

[Balta1701]

On top of the fact that even if you were to create and adequately fund such a program, the kids we're talking about won't show up anyway.

But every one that does is a win.

[StrangeSox]

Or maybe it has something to do with the fact that the last few generations of American children (mine included), have had a soft, easy lifestyle for the most part due to a higher standard of living than the rest of the world and has failed to develop a work ethic.

 

Pretty sure the SOL in many countries that beat US in education is on par or better than the US average.

[StrangeSox]

I'm not sure, as to tex's part. Throwing them out certainly would probably improve the rest in the classroom, but it also creates a huge barrier for that student.

 

To be fair this is actually how a lot of other countries run their secondary schools. Kids get tracked early on into college or vocational.

[StrangeSox]

yeah IMO it's one of the biggest problems facing this country. I agree that children of parents who divorce can be just as dysfunctional. It's more about a fatherless home than anything. Only data I can find is this from 2009, "41% of children born in the USA were born to unmarried mothers (up from 5% a half-century ago). That includes 73% of non-Hispanic black children, 53% of Hispanic children and 29% of non-Hispanic white children." So take that 41% and add in the children of divorce and it's probably more than half of US homes without fathers. Here's some statistics on children from fatherless homes...some are old, but I doubt things are improving. http://fatherhood.about.com/od/fathersrigh...ss_children.htm

 

So for me it all comes back to that....I figure this is understood, but I'll add it here anyway....I'm not saying some children don't overcome...just odds are stacked against them. A big thing is even if the father isn't in the home...he needs to be very active in their life. But I think a lot of our problems can be traced back to family upbringing.

 

Symptom or ailment? Or both?

 

Strong family and community support is definitely very important, but I don't think the family crumbled first, then the rest came.

[iamshack]

Pretty sure the SOL in many countries that beat US in education is on par or better than the US average.

I wasn't arguing a direct correlation between global SOL and education.

[StrangeSox]

I wasn't arguing a direct correlation between global SOL and education.

 

But you can't explain America's slipping educational performance by standard of living or technology-induced laziness, because the countries that out-perform us have the same stuff and are generally ranked higher overall.

[iamshack]

But you can't explain America's slipping educational performance by standard of living or technology-induced laziness, because the countries that out-perform us have the same stuff and are generally ranked higher overall.

Oh right, so there aren't any cultural differences?

[StrangeSox]

Oh right, so there aren't any cultural differences?

 

Sure, but then the issue is "cultural differences," not access to technology and video games or having a high standard of living where there's food on the table every day (also, not true for millions of Americans).

[bmags]

To be fair this is actually how a lot of other countries run their secondary schools. Kids get tracked early on into college or vocational.

 

I took their comments as saying they would be thrown out of school.

[iamshack]

Sure, but then the issue is "cultural differences," not access to technology and video games or having a high standard of living where there's food on the table every day (also, not true for millions of Americans).

You're missing the point entirely. Read the rest of the thread.

[StrangeSox]

You're missing the point entirely. Read the rest of the thread.

 

Never.

[bmags]

We have very high hours worked, especially compared to the Nordic countries, and pretty much above every European country except for Italy.

 

 

[Texsox]

Another difference between US schools and other countries is we make an assumption that every kid should go to college. We push them into college prep programs, dress them in college t-shirts, and extol the virtues of a college education. Possibly rightfully, we have eliminated most vocational programs from our schools. Those kids who would be successful and interested in those paths are instead forced like a square peg in a round hole to be taking advanced math and English classes so they can go to college. Other countries continue the child's education, but on a different path.