Education bubble?

[Balta1701]

Another difference between US schools and other countries is we make an assumption that every kid should go to college. We push them into college prep programs, dress them in college t-shirts, and extol the virtues of a college education. Possibly rightfully, we have eliminated most vocational programs from our schools. Those kids who would be successful and interested in those paths are instead forced like a square peg in a round hole to be taking advanced math and English classes so they can go to college. Other countries continue the child's education, but on a different path.

So Tex...I'm not convinced that your statement is true...but if it is true that the U.S. has backed off on vocational programs, why has it happened?

[southsider2k5]

But you can't explain America's slipping educational performance by standard of living or technology-induced laziness, because the countries that out-perform us have the same stuff and are generally ranked higher overall.

 

I would point out that the trend towards "nationalized" education correlates pretty well with our fall from the top of the world in education.

[southsider2k5]

So Tex...I'm not convinced that your statement is true...but if it is true that the U.S. has backed off on vocational programs, why has it happened?

 

I can tell you I know this to be true in Indiana purely from a numbers standpoint. There are a large number less kids in the Voc programs than there used to be.

[Balta1701]

I can tell you I know this to be true in Indiana purely from a numbers standpoint. There are a large number less kids in the Voc programs than there used to be.

Can you give a reason why?

[southsider2k5]

Can you give a reason why?

 

I can guess loss of jobs/careers in most of those fields, but it is only a pseudo-educated guess.

[Balta1701]

I can guess loss of jobs/careers in most of those fields, but it is only a pseudo-educated guess.

In that case, advocating for a vocational program is advocating for people to be trained for jobs that don't exist, which would be a "Fail" if that were the true reason.

[Texsox]

I can only offer my opinion as to why.

• Standardized state mandated testing in core subjects shrinks the available electives.
• Many of the manufacturing related vocational programs were paths to jobs that no longer exist in the US, so why bother.
• The people making the decisions are all college educated.
• The facilities are too expensive to maintain.
• The programs have inherit physical risks that are absent from desks and books so insurance rates are higher.
• Society pressure, especially in the STEM area.

 

[Texsox]

In that case, advocating for a vocational program is advocating for people to be trained for jobs that don't exist, which would be a "Fail" if that were the true reason.

 

I believe that is only in the manufacturing and agribusiness areas.

[Balta1701]

I can only offer my opinion as to why.

• Standardized state mandated testing in core subjects shrinks the available electives.
• Many of the manufacturing related vocational programs were paths to jobs that no longer exist in the US, so why bother.
• The people making the decisions are all college educated.
• The facilities are too expensive to maintain.
• The programs have inherit physical risks that are absent from desks and books so insurance rates are higher.
• Society pressure, especially in the STEM area.

At this point I'm hoping you can see why I'm asking this question between you and 2k5...because the cause of this decline leads itself to very different solutions.

 

If its mandatory testing that is the problem, throwing money at the program makes no difference.

 

If its expensive facilities, changing the testing requirements makes no difference.

 

If its the insurance rates, then the programs are SOL and need to be done in college.

 

If the jobs aren't there connected with them, then adding more money or having better tests don't do anything.

[Balta1701]

I believe that is only in the manufacturing and agribusiness areas.

At least in Indiana, those were the "Vocational" industries in high school.

[southsider2k5]

In that case, advocating for a vocational program is advocating for people to be trained for jobs that don't exist, which would be a "Fail" if that were the true reason.

 

I don't believe our school system prepares us very well for either college or the workforce, so I can accept that as true.

[bmags]

Great article.

http://www.tnr.com/article/economy/89675/b...degree?page=0,1

[Balta1701]

Some topical work from Science on early childhood education. Basically...it works. Incredibly well. You can still see it working when the people who received early childhood education are in their 30's.

Advances in understanding the effects of early education have benefited public policy and developmental science. Although preschool has demonstrated positive effects on life-course outcomes, limitations in knowledge on program scale, subgroup differences, and dosage levels have hindered progress. We report the effects of the Child-Parent Center Education Program on indicators of well-being up to 25 years later for more than 1400 participants. This established, publicly funded intervention begins in preschool and provides up to 6 years of service in inner-city Chicago schools. Relative to the comparison group receiving the usual services, program participation was independently linked to higher educational attainment, income, socioeconomic status (SES), and health insurance coverage, as well as lower rates of justice-system involvement and substance abuse. Evidence of enduring effects was strongest for preschool, especially for males and children of high school dropouts. The positive influence of 4 years or more of service was limited primarily to education and SES. Dosage within program components was mostly unrelated to outcomes. Findings demonstrate support for the enduring effects of sustained school-based early education to the end of the third decade of life.

[southsider2k5]

Thought this might be of interest

 

http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/sbt-s...,0,566885.story

 

State joins suit over commissions

 

South Bend Tribune Staff Report

 

5:47 a.m. EDT, June 16, 2011

Indiana has joined a federal whistle-blower lawsuit accusing the parent company of Brown Mackie College of illegally paying commissions toward student recruiters, according to the office of Indiana Attorney General Greg Zoeller.

 

The suit claims Pittsburgh-based Education Management Corp., a publicly traded company, violated federal law by paying commissions and other perks to recruiters based in part on the number of students they signed up.

 

Education Management Corp. operates 27 Brown Mackie College sites around the country, including campuses in South Bend, Michigan City, Merrillville, Fort Wayne and Indianapolis.

 

Indiana joins several other states in the suit, which is proceeding in U.S. District Court in Pittsburgh. The suit was initiated by two whistle-blowers who were Education Management employees in Pennsylvania.