Carlo Paz Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Many people on here (myself included) seem to think that Jerry Manuel is a very bad manager. I'm wondering if there have been any examples of bad managers who have won big. Can anyone think of a team in recent memory that was so talented that they won despite having a manager who couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the directions printed on the heel? (The obvious example being the 2000 White Sox) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Don Zimmer got to the playoffs with the Lovable Losers...but that team wasn't what I'd call "tremendously talented". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I was one of Brenly's biggest critics during the 2001 playoffs. He got outmanaged in the St Louis series badly, and the Yanks one to an extent. They should have been eliminated in that first series. Futhermore, i watched basically all of the recent AZ/Cubs series, and he did some real bonehead stuff. He ran on 2-0 a bunch of times, which doesn't make sense in my book. I can't recall everything, but just remember saying to myself "brenly you are an idiot" I think they won the world series despite him basically Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Gene Lamont? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 whiy is it that any manager who wins a division title for us gets trashed? I don't think a lot of you want to win so much as having something to b**** about. I like JM as a manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 whiy is it that any manager who wins a division title for us gets trashed? I don't think a lot of you want to win so much as having something to b**** about. I like JM as a manager. Well what did you think of the move yesterday? I only criticize manual for things i can see and that i disagree with, yesterday was one of em I do agree with what your saying about people b****ing though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Paz Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 whiy is it that any manager who wins a division title for us gets trashed? I don't think a lot of you want to win so much as having something to b**** about. I like JM as a manager. Jerry gets trashed a lot because Jerry makes a lot of decisions that leave many of us scratching our heads and saying WTF. Those of us that b**** about his decisions could certainly all be wrong. It's easy to shoot spit balls from the side lines. In my opinion though, those that complain about Jerry do so precisely because they (we) are concerned about winning. I don't think Jerry makes decisions that optimize our chances of winning, thus, I complain. Believe me, I was much happier saying things like "holy s***, LaRussa made Billy Martin look like a chump that whole series, I think this team is going places". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSFAN35 Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 A bad manager could take an all-star team to a World Series, but in all honesty, the Sox are not an all-star team. Jerry Manuel isn't a terrible manager, there are far worse in the league, but he will definately have to smarten up in order to get this team into the World Series. The best bet for the Sox is to have the veteran players on the team get behind Manuel, and give this team some real leadership. Finding a fifth starter couldn't hurt either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Believe me, I was much happier saying things like "holy s***, LaRussa made Billy Martin look like a chump that whole series, I think this team is going places". when did that happen?????? As far as concenred about winning - I remember b****ing about LaRussa - and he won in 83 - and I remember a lot of b****ing about Lamont - and he won in 93 and was ahead in 94 at the lock out - and I hear b****ing about Manuel and he won in 2000. So it is not about winning. This in a city that still reveres Ditka, the only coach who could have failed to have 3 super bowl wins in a row with that team that he had. Chicago fans don't care s*** about winning. They care about posturing and tough guy attitudes and macho poses. Winning is secondary. (I am overstating that but I am making a point. Phil Jackson - 6 NBA titles - is disrespected because "anyone could have won with that team" even thought no one won with that team until he showed up, when Michael Jordan was mocked as the best player to enevr win. And Jaclkson goes out and wins 3 more - but of course anyone could have won withj that tram, aklthoguht no one did. Success is belittled when yuu don't have a neanderthal asshole kicking and screaming on the sidelines to fit some stereotyped image of "coach" or "manager.") I certainly wonder about a few moves JM makes, sometimes more than a few. But don't try to tell me that winning means that much when this city judges managers and coaches. I gre up here- I know better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Paz Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 In 83 there was an important series in NY just as the Sox were starting to turn it around. I remember LaRussa made a few decisions that were crucial that paid off (I remember in particular 2 pitch-outs in the same sequence to catch a runner stealing). I wasn't a huge fan of LaRussa, but he impressed me during that series. Regarding your other points, in my opinion Ditka was a horrible coach who managed not to blow it one year, while Phil Jackson was the best coach this town ever saw. Generally speaking, I tend not to notice the manager unless I feel his decisions are really bad. I notice JM a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox247 Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Bob Brenly in 2001 definately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLAK Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Hellow CWSOX, the trolls drove me off the other board, nice to see people talking about baseball. I joined the forces of evil demanding that JM go earlier in the season. My issue is not so much his in game decisions as his failure to handle men and get the best out of them. I heard Everett on the radio with Farmer taling about bunting and saying "they seem to be asking me to be an RBI man here", not 'my job hitting in the middle and driving runs'. A couple days after his call up Matt Ginter is with Farmer who asked him if was brought up to throw long relief or for spot situations. He said neither JM or KM talked to him but Cooper told him to be ready for anything! What a circus, in my eyes it really lent credence to Rick White's little tirade. Last night Jon Garland was so mad he didn't talk to any reporters. JM explained to the media that his plan was to bury the Royals with his leftys, a pretty good plan actually, but wouldn't a leader of men have explained that to Jon and brought him on board? Jon did his job, why does he have to go home PO'd? I could go on and on with examples, but I think it is a sign of good managers, like Bobby Cox, Lou Pinella and yes, Tony Larussa, that the players know what is expected of them, are taught how to prepare for it and are the first to know when their role is changing. With the beloved White Sox I see a team with by far the best talent in the division feeling, floundering and groping it's way through the season. It's this tenativeness that's killing us. Big game tonight, I hope JM wins, but I think we'd be better off with a leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 welcome to soxtalk especially to another refugee from mlb! like with everything, there is an intelligent disagreement with JM's decisions which I totally respect and the ongoing fill in the blank our manager sucks and every other manager is better thing, especially when it goes on against JM non stop. I wonder - did space aliens replace JM with the manager who went 9-1 just recently and then return him, or is it that the manager looks much smarter when the bullpen doesn't collapse? I admit I cut JM more slack because he took us to a divison title and I know anyone could have managed that team with a pitching staff of 1/2 season Eldred, Baldwin, Parque, Ken Hill (I was at that game and not happy with Mr Hill!) and anyone else we could put behind Sirotka. That to me was managing. I have always wondered why it is so easy to trash our winning managers (i.e., Lamont, Manuel), especially when I have seen so many of the other kind. I also saw steady improvement of the team from 97 to 98, 98 to 99, and 99 to 00. 01 was the injury year and 02 I think we could have tanked and not be contending now if JM didn't hold that team together and recover. And I am always amused that the same people who bash JR White Flag of 97 - 3 games out on 1 August, "we have no chance of winning" are the same ones who proclaim today, 5 August, 3 out, that "we have no chance of winning." But again, the intelligent dissection of managerial moves is always in good taste and you and Carlos Paz and others have made some very worthwhile points. That is the type of stuff that I find educational and informative. and again, welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2003 Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 welcome to soxtalk especially to another refugee from mlb! like with everything, there is an intelligent disagreement with JM's decisions which I totally respect and the ongoing fill in the blank our manager sucks and every other manager is better thing, especially when it goes on against JM non stop. I wonder - did space aliens replace JM with the manager who went 9-1 just recently and then return him, or is it that the manager looks much smarter when the bullpen doesn't collapse? I admit I cut JM more slack because he took us to a divison title and I know anyone could have managed that team with a pitching staff of 1/2 season Eldred, Baldwin, Parque, Ken Hill (I was at that game and not happy with Mr Hill!) and anyone else we could puty behind Sirotka. That to me was managing. I have always wondered why it is so easy to trash our winning managers (i.e., Lamont, Manuel), especially when I have seen so many of the other kind. I also saw steady improvement of the team from 97 to 98, 98 to 99, and 99 to 00. 01 was the injury year and 02 I think we could have tanked and not been contending now if JM didn't hold that team together and recover. And I am always amused that the same people who bash JR White Flag of 97 - 3 games out on 1 August, "we have no chance of winning" are the same ones who proclaim today, 5 August, 3 out, that "we have no chance of winning." But again, the intelligent dissection of managerial moves is always in good taste and you and Carlos Paz and others have made some very worthwhile points. That is the type of stuff that I find educational and informative. and again, welcome! DAMN CWSOX. U throwin some real good knowledge out there today. I agree with just about everything u said... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 DAMN CWSOX. U throwin some real good knowledge out there today. I agree with just about everything u said... well thank you! now go check the YNOT standings and see who is in total absolute last place even though my average is better than 1/3 of the people who are above me in the standings! Based on YNOT, I am the dumbest stump of the tree. so I don't know s***. I just type what JM tells me too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 Okay i usually stay away from the KW and JM bashings because i dont think we should blame these two for everything. However, if you watch the sox on a daily basis, and think Jerry Manuel is a good manager, your knowledge of baseball is totally lacking. He is not a leader, he isnt good at setting lineups, and he is totally clueless about when to take his pitchers out and leave them in. Over the past several season, the sox have been a talented team.They have had young talent at that, how could they NOT improve over that stretch. GIve me a break. Is he the worst manager in baseball? No. is he in the top 70 percent? No again. If we want a ring, he has to go. It seems obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 If you stop and think about it, this team has not lived up to expectations in 2001, 2002 or 2003 (yet). I really believe that without at least advancing past the first round of the playoffs, Jerry is gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted August 6, 2003 Share Posted August 6, 2003 If you stop and think about it, this team has not lived up to expectations in 2001, 2002 or 2003 (yet). I really believe that without at least advancing past the first round of the playoffs, Jerry is gone. Good point. If he can get us to the ALCS, i guess he can stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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