What's a worse scenario?

[knightni]

You can't guarantee a championship with any scenario, but which one would you not want the most?

[bigruss]

Mediocrity, because with the way the Sox are with finances, it means they wouldn't have a chance to build and develop a strong core through the minors like the Rays (with the ability to keep the players), while not really having the finances to continuously try to buy wins.

 

You fall into a bad cycle of not being able to improve your team through the draft nor FA.

[southsider2k5]

The meltdown scenario will set this franchise back 20 years.

[Flash Tizzle]

The meltdown scenario will set this franchise back 20 years.

No, it wont.

 

Thankfully that's all the insight necessary for your post, because this 20 year number was obviously an arbitrary figure of how YOU feel. Yes, we all realize you don't want to grow old and watch the Sox struggle; I've picked up that vibe for years. But admit that rather than provide a doomsday scenario of what may happen if they decide to take another direction with this team. Listen, there's no set way of winning a championship, but what they're doing right now isn't working. It may be time to try another approach rather than wait for a .700+ winning streak to set us right and give everyone false hope. Deal with it with some dignity, please.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Flash Tizzle

[Real]

I voted for the wrong option, meant to vote for #1 instead of #3

[knightni]

I voted for the wrong option, meant to vote for #1 instead of #3

Fixed.

[knightni]

So, what you guys are saying is, that right now, KW is doing exactly the job that you want.

 

He's spent money, built the team and the minors suck. The winning part is on the coaching staff now.

[SoxAce]

No, it wont.

 

Thankfully that's all the insight necessary for your post, because this 20 year number was obviously an arbitrary figure of how YOU feel. Yes, we all realize you don't want to grow old and watch the Sox struggle; I've picked up that vibe for years. But admit that rather than provide a doomsday scenario of what may happen if they decide to take another direction with this team. Listen, there's no set way of winning a championship, but what they're doing right now isn't working. It may be time to try another approach rather than wait for a .700+ winning streak to set us right and give everyone false hope. Deal with it with some dignity, please.

 

I've missed you around these parts Tizzle. Post more.

[Dick Allen]

No, it wont.

 

Thankfully that's all the insight necessary for your post, because this 20 year number was obviously an arbitrary figure of how YOU feel. Yes, we all realize you don't want to grow old and watch the Sox struggle; I've picked up that vibe for years. But admit that rather than provide a doomsday scenario of what may happen if they decide to take another direction with this team. Listen, there's no set way of winning a championship, but what they're doing right now isn't working. It may be time to try another approach rather than wait for a .700+ winning streak to set us right and give everyone false hope. Deal with it with some dignity, please.

If the Sox cannot select the correct players who have track records, how are they going to build from within through drafting unknowns? Who have they drafted have they basically stolen? Who have they developed? They do not have the personnel in management to get this done. I agree with SS2K5 here, although 20 may be a little high. What makes them Tampa Bay (who were bad a real long time) vs. Pittsburgh or KC who have been bad even longer?

 

They go to a real low payroll, unless their recognizing talent in the draft and developmental program improves dramatically overnight, it will be closer to 20 years than the 3 or 4 most who choose this way figure it will take.

[Flash Tizzle]

If the Sox cannot select the correct players who have track records, how are they going to build from within through drafting unknowns? Who have they drafted have they basically stolen? Who have they developed? They do not have the personnel in management to get this done. I agree with SS2K5 here, although 20 may be a little high. What makes them Tampa Bay (who were bad a real long time) vs. Pittsburgh or KC who have been bad even longer?

 

They go to a real low payroll, unless their recognizing talent in the draft and developmental program improves dramatically overnight, it will be closer to 20 years than the 3 or 4 most who choose this way figure it will take.

It's not the idea of just building from within, because they'll never do that alone. But we will NEVER learn the value of developing a system unless we're forced into it. If knocking down the team, having 5-6 years of putrid baseball forces them to fix their faults I'll accept it. Because when it begins to turn around and this team begins competing, the payroll will increase but we will also have the benefit of a quality system to offset the salaries of more expensive players.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Flash Tizzle

[caulfield12]

Everyone has to remember that with the current revenue structure in baseball, the White Sox enjoy a significant advantage in being able to ramp up the payroll quickly when it's necessary or justified.

 

2005 showed you can win the World Series with a $65 million dollar payroll. It's when we spent $90-$130 million on the payroll since then that the team's lost its hunger a bit, drive, desire, whatever you want to call it.

 

I think you're seeing the same thing happening with the Twins.

 

You don't want a team of all "cast-offs" trying to prove themselves to the world (the Carl Everetts and AJ's and El Duque's and Pods and Hermansons), but you have to have a little bit of a chip on your shoulder...mixed with a younger core of players hitting their prime and the veteran leadership.

 

With the broadcasting and ancillary revenues, advertising/marketing advantages in Chicago...it's not just about parking/concessions/souvenirs/ticket sales. That's just one stream these days, and over time, becoming less and less important with the Regional Sports Networks and WGN/superstations.

 

A rebuilding effort is fine if it leads to a championship caliber team for 3+ years. What's not fine is being the Royals/Pirates/Mariners/Padres/Marlins/Nationals/Orioles (although with their two marquee draftees healthy, they could be dangerous).

 

Cleveland and Colorado had similar fan support in the 90's and early 00's. Look how both franchises have done since then. The Rockies reinvented their organization and the fans have come back, especially with the 2007 season.

 

 

[caulfield12]

It's not the idea of just building from within, because they'll never do that alone. But we will NEVER learn the value of developing a system unless we're forced into it. If knocking down the team, having 5-6 years of putrid baseball forces them to fix their faults I'll accept it. Because when it begins to turn around and this team begins competing, the payroll will increase but we will also have the benefit of a quality system to offset the salaries of more expensive players.

 

 

It happened in the 80's and late 90's.

 

Reinsdorf has been through it at least twice. The question is whether he feels KW and Ozzie are the right guys to do it.

 

I find it hard to believe that he would NOT believe in KW but would think Rick Hahn (or Buddy Bell) would be the clear choice.

 

They need to change the entire organizational philosophy if this is going to work.

[southsider2k5]

No, it wont.

 

Thankfully that's all the insight necessary for your post, because this 20 year number was obviously an arbitrary figure of how YOU feel. Yes, we all realize you don't want to grow old and watch the Sox struggle; I've picked up that vibe for years. But admit that rather than provide a doomsday scenario of what may happen if they decide to take another direction with this team. Listen, there's no set way of winning a championship, but what they're doing right now isn't working. It may be time to try another approach rather than wait for a .700+ winning streak to set us right and give everyone false hope. Deal with it with some dignity, please.

 

I picked 20 years on purpose. The late 80s into the early 90's were horrible years where the teams sucked and no one went to the games. Sox fans are already infamous for being bandwagon fans, and if all of the players got traded off, it isn't a big leap of faith to expect crowds to drop back into Cleveland Indians range because there is a history of it on the southside. Heck people are already swearing off going to games. Can you imagine that minus all of the star players, and a couple of ninety loss seasons later? I have history on my side. YOU have your feelings.

[caulfield12]

I picked 20 years on purpose. The late 80s into the early 90's were horrible years where the teams sucked and no one went to the games. Sox fans are already infamous for being bandwagon fans, and if all of the players got traded off, it isn't a big leap of faith to expect crowds to drop back into Cleveland Indians range because there is a history of it on the southside. Heck people are already swearing off going to games. Can you imagine that minus all of the star players, and a couple of ninety loss seasons later? I have history on my side. YOU have your feelings.

 

 

The new stadium and the talent of those early 90's teams, 1990-94 wasn't GREAT attendance wise but it wasn't anything close to horrible.

 

Most of the 60's, 70's and 80's, brutal, sure.

 

That mid to late 90's youth movement took a long time to bear fruition in 2000 as well.

Edited May 1, 2011 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

I picked 20 years on purpose. The late 80s into the early 90's were horrible years where the teams sucked and no one went to the games. Sox fans are already infamous for being bandwagon fans, and if all of the players got traded off, it isn't a big leap of faith to expect crowds to drop back into Cleveland Indians range because there is a history of it on the southside. Heck people are already swearing off going to games. Can you imagine that minus all of the star players, and a couple of ninety loss seasons later? I have history on my side. YOU have your feelings.

1990-1994 was a pretty good stretch to be a Sox fan. 1995 sucked, and the strike really hurt attendance. 1996 wasn't bad, 1997-1999 was a rebuilding, although Belle and Thomas were in the middle of the line up in 97 and 98, and they had guys like Thomas and Ordonez and Lee already in the organization. 2000 was a surprise. 2001-2004 weren't bad, but always dissappointing, 2005 magical. 2006-2010 basically the same as 2001-2004 Since JR took over, the only real horrid extended stretch was 1986-1989, which according to my source, was the last time White Sox partners were issed a cash call.

 

I'm with you on a total rebuild. It really makes little sense.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

Everyone has to remember that with the current revenue structure in baseball, the White Sox enjoy a significant advantage in being able to ramp up the payroll quickly when it's necessary or justified.

 

2005 showed you can win the World Series with a $65 million dollar payroll. It's when we spent $90-$130 million on the payroll since then that the team's lost its hunger a bit, drive, desire, whatever you want to call it.

 

I think you're seeing the same thing happening with the Twins.

 

You don't want a team of all "cast-offs" trying to prove themselves to the world (the Carl Everetts and AJ's and El Duque's and Pods and Hermansons), but you have to have a little bit of a chip on your shoulder...mixed with a younger core of players hitting their prime and the veteran leadership.

 

With the broadcasting and ancillary revenues, advertising/marketing advantages in Chicago...it's not just about parking/concessions/souvenirs/ticket sales. That's just one stream these days, and over time, becoming less and less important with the Regional Sports Networks and WGN/superstations.

 

A rebuilding effort is fine if it leads to a championship caliber team for 3+ years. What's not fine is being the Royals/Pirates/Mariners/Padres/Marlins/Nationals/Orioles (although with their two marquee draftees healthy, they could be dangerous).

 

Cleveland and Colorado had similar fan support in the 90's and early 00's. Look how both franchises have done since then. The Rockies reinvented their organization and the fans have come back, especially with the 2007 season.

The other problem is if you want to develop young players while not winning, you're not getting any free agents unless you totally outbid other teams. You'll have to give Jayson Werth-like contracts to Jayson Werth-like players, and they have some young guys chances are even if the Sox had the first pick in the draft wouldn't be able to get a comparable player.

 

Sox fans don't have the patience to go through a 2 or 3 week stretch of bad baseball. 4 or 5 years minimum of it, and I think SS2k5 may be on to something if its full blown, and most will walk away until they can buy playoff tickets again.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

Kansas City leading the Twins 11-2.

 

The only pleasure I have left these days is reading the Minneapolis Star Tribune and reading the message threads there after another loss. They're better than our game threads.

 

The Astros just passed us with a win, so for tonight it's the White Sox, Twins and Padres fighting it out for worst record in MLB.

 

 

 

Sox fans don't have the patience to go through a 2 or 3 week stretch of bad baseball. 4 or 5 years minimum of it, and I think SS2k5 may be on to something if its full blown, and most will walk away until they can buy playoff tickets again.

 

Well, the Cubs aren't doing much better. Their ticket sales are slumping, too. So it's not an impossible situation. I always go back to how things felt at the end of 2007. Total apathy, a bit of excitement about Fields and some for Owens after he had four or five hits against the Twins, but it was BLEAK BLEAK BLEAK.

 

It just took that one offseason to turn things around.

 

Things are a lot more complex this time, but there are some similarities.

 

It will be VERY interesting to see the reactions of the Pohlads in Minnesota (with the new stadium there) and JR going forward if this continues for another 2 weeks.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2011 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Now Rios homers down 5 in the 9th.

[DirtySox]

Now Rios homers down 5 in the 9th.

 

Was the gamethread really closed for being too negative? Is there something to be positive about?

[Marty34]

I think Rios will turn it around soon.

[SoxAce]

Was the gamethread really closed for being too negative? Is there something to be positive about?

 

I think my boy Alex was just bored and wanted to use his admin powers. He's alittle rusty you know.

[caulfield12]

I think Rios will turn it around soon.

 

Didn't you already declare the season over?

 

LOL.

 

Maybe it is, who knows.

 

Indians have a chance to win it in the bottom of the 13th. Let's see what Rongey's callers have to say tonight. We're all gluttons for punishment.

 

 

[Marty34]

Season is over, but Rios will tun it around.

[Be Good]

Dump salary....build up minors

 

But if you ask this same question and if the Sox were .500 right now, the votes would be very different.

[The Ginger Kid]

what do you do with matt thornton, just keep running him out there? He just looks so resigned to suckage that if he were anyone else you'd think about sending them down to get their head straight.

 

on another note, I get that Harrelson is a homer. I've listened to him for years. But now he's trying to tell us what a great job Alexi has done this season, and how it's not his fault, this when he's made a handful of costly errors to date. I'm not bagging on Alexi but I'm sure as s*** not about to praise him either.

 

Anyone else feel like AJ cost us this series?