Make the Case for Ozzie

[shago]

All the haters have now been told for a long time that we are overreacting, that the players like playing for him (which i dont believe) or that because he's like a son to Jerry that he is not going anywhere, but I would like to hear some legitimate arguments as to why he deserves to keep his job. The negatives are obvious, what are the affirmative arguments?

[iamshack]

All the haters have now been told for a long time that we are overreacting, that the players like playing for him (which i dont believe) or that because he's like a son to Jerry that he is not going anywhere, but I would like to hear some legitimate arguments as to why he deserves to keep his job. The negatives are obvious, what are the affirmative arguments?

He's not the one up there hitting poorly, or pitching poorly, or dropping the ball in the outfield, or walking runners in, or unable to smother breaking balls in the dirt, or failing to get runners in from 3rd with less than two outs.

[caulfield12]

1. 95% of it is on the players

 

2. There are very very few instances of coaching seasons mid-season having any demonstratable effect (McKeon in FLA comes to mind)

 

3. 2005 (handling the near-collapse), 2008 and the 26-5 run from last year buy Ozzie the benefit of the doubt.

 

4. Theoretically, there's too much talent for the White Sox to keep playing this bad defensively.

 

5. How many coaching/managerial changes have happened in April or May of a baseball season?

 

6. Dunn and Rios are/were recovering from injuries, Beckham's totally lost (along with Thornton) and we don't have Peavy back. Juan Pierre isn't THAT bad. Nor is AJ. And Sergio Santos is THE MAN.

 

7. Look at the back of their baseball cards...

 

8. Chris Rongey (playing GM in post-game yesterday) said he'd do nothing if he was KW.

Edited May 1, 2011 by caulfield12

[shago]

He's not the one up there hitting poorly, or pitching poorly, or dropping the ball in the outfield, or walking runners in, or unable to smother breaking balls in the dirt, or failing to get runners in from 3rd with less than two outs.

What's the point/value of a manager if he's not accountable for performance?

[greg775]

You can't make a case for him right now.

Normally I'm not a fan of booing, but what else can our fans do? The Cell must be an utterly depressing place to be. Nobody goes to the park hoping to "boo" their lungs out, but what else can the fans do?

This team is a piece of s***. Utter piece of crap.

 

As far as Ozzie, nobody can defend him.

You either fire him (which even he probably would accept as something he deserves) or ride this out with him.

The team is 10 out in the loss column. It will take well past the all star break to catch Cleveland at this point (Cleveland is not going to lose 8 in a row; they play too well at home) and that's if the Sox start playing ball.

 

So again ... there is no defense of Ozzie.

The question is, do you fire him now? Cora and Buddy Bell are very depressing options; I'd do it if you could get Torre.

Or you keep him because of the team's track record under his leadership and ride this storm out.

 

I think he should be fired, but again, only if you have a name lined up.

It has to be Torre or Bobby Cox. s***, by now, Cox might be bored out his ass and agree to take over.

Edited May 1, 2011 by greg775

[caulfield12]

Bobby Cox would leave the National League and take over the worst team in baseball?

 

You'd have to be someone like Larry Brown (NBA) or Bobby Valentine or Showalter, someone with an ego and hubris bigger than even Ozzie's to think that you could right the ship by your mere presence.

 

Davey Johnson also comes to mind.

 

But there's no way in hell it would be Bobby Cox. Torre? 5% chance at best.

[caulfield12]

What's the point/value of a manager if he's not accountable for performance?

 

 

The exact same question was asked of Rongey in the post-game. He kind of danced around it and decided not to argue too much, it was more along the lines of my response above.

 

By the way, we've just witnessed the "second string quarterback" with Cora managing the last two games.

 

Not much reason to believe he's the one to do it.

 

It's one thing to take out the manager is mid-season, but Walker and Baines would probably both leave (I know, I know, Bainsey isn't a huge loss) with Ozzie. That's a pretty dramatic change to make. Cox and Cooper would stick it out. That's my guess at least. As Fathom has mentioned numerous times, Cooper would really love to manage this team. It's a theory. At least you have the idea he's separate from the ex-Sox players "clique" that Ozzie has surrounded himself with.

Edited May 1, 2011 by caulfield12

[greg775]

It will be really interesting to see what happens if KW doesn't fire Ozzie.

 

Ozzie can't go on any of his Oz rants the rest of the season because they are not cute when this team is this bad.

Ozzie will just have to sit back and take the flogging of the fans and the media.

 

This is a big boy's game. Ozzie knows it. He definitely should be fired right now. The question is ... will he be fired?

[soxrwhite]

I can't make a case for him any more.

Every year he talks about how important defense is and every year the Sox defense is sloppy at best.

He preaches how his team should play the game right and fundamentals like base running are very poor.

Pinch hitting, pinch running, and late inning defensive replacements almost never happen.

His son publicly revealing private clubhouse issues.

Enough, since we all the negatives and the thread is make a case FOR him.

 

Positives? I don't know anymore.

Edited May 1, 2011 by since56

[caulfield12]

The funny thing is that they were out there Saturday for early bunting practice as a team.

 

Little help that did. Camp Cora. And Ozzie's mid-season tirades about fundamentals that change things for about 3-5 games and then the old patterns and habits are resuscitated.

 

I agree. It's very hard to imagine the malaise or funk they're currently in turning around, especially with the West Coast looming.

 

This might be the most interesting Twins-Sox two game set in recent memory. I'm predicting that whichever team sweeps it, they'll go on to win the ALCD. In all likelihood, it will be a split. Neither team is playing well enough to beat each other two consecutive games.

[shago]

As Fathom has mentioned numerous times, Cooper would really love to manage this team.

I'd love to see Coop. If nothing else he at least has a track record as Psychologist-in-Chief and making the most of his tools (sure that will bring out the Thornton examples, but....).

[sircaffey]

Buddy Bell for Manager!

[caulfield12]

If Bell is named manager, I'm going to become the 2nd J4Life around here.

 

 

[sircaffey]

Joey Cora for Manager!

[caulfield12]

Don't tempt me to return to Dark Cloud-ism.

 

It will start a reign of terror and fear unparalled since the Inquisition and the French Revolution.

[southsider2k5]

Bobby Cox would leave the National League and take over the worst team in baseball?

 

You'd have to be someone like Larry Brown (NBA) or Bobby Valentine or Showalter, someone with an ego and hubris bigger than even Ozzie's to think that you could right the ship by your mere presence.

 

Davey Johnson also comes to mind.

 

But there's no way in hell it would be Bobby Cox. Torre? 5% chance at best.

 

It is funny you mention Bobby Cox and Joe Torre. Were they great managers before they took over Atlanta and New York? Look at Torre's pre-Yankees numbers especially.

[caulfield12]

"The Pohlads are too cheap to go beyond the $113 million pay roll they now have" What more do you want them to do? Who do you want them to bring in? Who's available for what we have right now? I don't see this as rock bottom. There are no pitchers pitching well---don't ya think they should have known this was coming? They gave up six guys who were pretty good last year in the bullpen. There are guys playing who would not be playing for anyone else. Why would we think these guys are going to start hitting? It is not going to happen. I think the Twins franchise started to believe they would win just because they are the Twins. When that feeling encompasses an organization - watch out - you are going to get throttled. And we are and will continue to be. Hopefully the players will be embarrassed and will get back to being hungry for the 2012 season. But, it will take significant losses and roster changes in the next 11 months for that to happen."

 

I quote this simply because I believe the White Sox were also overconfident coming out of the gate, especially after the first two games when they simply dismembered the Indians.

 

Then the Alexei triple play, the constant bullpen implosions, the team is just sort of shell-shocked. They hit that run of really good pitching and they're about to go through the same buzzsaw again for the next two weeks. What team emerges at the end of the tunnel, God only knows. But you can't blame most of this on the closer situation anymore.

 

It goes way beyond that. Now every game there are 2-3 mental errors and 2-3 physical errors that are almost inexplicable for modern baseball players.

 

You really thought after beating the Yankees twice in a row in the "Stadium" they would snap out of it, but just the opposite has happened.

Edited May 1, 2011 by caulfield12

[whitesoxfan101]

He's not the one up there hitting poorly, or pitching poorly, or dropping the ball in the outfield, or walking runners in, or unable to smother breaking balls in the dirt, or failing to get runners in from 3rd with less than two outs.

 

By this logic, the manager should NEVER be fired! You cannot fire the players, Kenny isn't going anywhere until after the season (as much as I'd love for him to be fired too) and you also cannot just sit there as the "all in" season burns to the ground long before Memorial Day. Somebody is going to take the fall if this doesn't turn around fast, and the only way it'll get the players attention at all is if it's Ozzie. Do I think it'll make a difference? Probably not. I think the end game here is a new manager and Rick Hahn as the GM on opening day of 2012. But, the team can't just give up like I already have.

Edited May 1, 2011 by whitesoxfan101

[soxrwhite]

By this logic, the manager should NEVER be fired! You cannot fire the players, Kenny isn't going anywhere until after the season (as much as I'd love for him to be fired too) and you also cannot just sit there as the "all in" season burns to the ground long before Memorial Day. Somebody is going to take the fall if this doesn't turn around fast, and the only way it'll get the players attention at all is if it's Ozzie. Do I think it'll make a difference? Probably not. I think the end game here is a new manager and Rick Hahn as the GM on opening day of 2012. But, the team can't just give up like I already have.

 

 

Its got to be Ozzie/Oney. Walker is not a big enough impact. Ozzie is the bombshell to let the players know they are going to go too if this doesn't change now. No one is sacred. If Ozzie can get fired the players can get sent down released or traded. Light a fire under their asses with a bold move. Bring in Bobby Valentine.

[Dick Allen]

Joey Cora for Manager!

Joey was the manager the past 2 games. He had AJP and Teahan hit against lefties down one late.

[Dick Allen]

All the haters have now been told for a long time that we are overreacting, that the players like playing for him (which i dont believe) or that because he's like a son to Jerry that he is not going anywhere, but I would like to hear some legitimate arguments as to why he deserves to keep his job. The negatives are obvious, what are the affirmative arguments?

They are 0-2 without him. Don't peg me an Ozzie guy, but the reason they should keep him is because IMO they are either too short-sided or the timing isn't going to be right to bring in someone better. If the replacement is Cora or Bell, or Cooper, there really is no reason to change.

[StrangeSox]

Anyone but Ozzie!

[iamshack]

By this logic, the manager should NEVER be fired! You cannot fire the players, Kenny isn't going anywhere until after the season (as much as I'd love for him to be fired too) and you also cannot just sit there as the "all in" season burns to the ground long before Memorial Day. Somebody is going to take the fall if this doesn't turn around fast, and the only way it'll get the players attention at all is if it's Ozzie. Do I think it'll make a difference? Probably not. I think the end game here is a new manager and Rick Hahn as the GM on opening day of 2012. But, the team can't just give up like I already have.

He said make a case for Ozzie, so I did.

 

Honestly, I do blame the players for the most part. There is just only so much a manager can do...but I do think that these periods of corpseball have to be a reflection on someone or something that goes on in our clubhouse.

 

I know I am one of Kenny's biggest fans, so maybe I am biased in regards to that, but I have a really hard time finding much blame with his work. I think he consistently puts teams out there that have the ability to win this division...at some point the players have to play and earn their paychecks.

[Milkman delivers]

He's not the one up there hitting poorly, or pitching poorly, or dropping the ball in the outfield, or walking runners in, or unable to smother breaking balls in the dirt, or failing to get runners in from 3rd with less than two outs.

 

Translation: As long as a manager shows up to work everyday, he should never lose his job.

[Milkman delivers]

I can't make a case for him any more.

Every year he talks about how important defense is and every year the Sox defense is sloppy at best.

He preaches how his team should play the game right and fundamentals like base running are very poor.

Pinch hitting, pinch running, and late inning defensive replacements almost never happen.

His son publicly revealing private clubhouse issues.

Enough, since we all the negatives and the thread is make a case FOR him.

 

Positives? I don't know anymore.

 

But he's not the guy playing defense, nor is he pinch hitting/bunting/running. So all of this is moot. It's not his fault. Manager for life and whatnot. 2005!