Osama Bin Laden Dead

[RockRaines]

You know, pretending that anyone who isn't cheerleading this right now is somehow just exhibiting teenaged angst sort of validates his opening point.

Thats funny, because all I said is the evaluation was subjective and that I had a differing opinion.

 

 

I am not cheerleading, instead spending my time thankful for the retribution of the murder of people I knew and my friends knew. My night last night was spent reflecting and remembering those we lost, since its not something we are reminded of every day. So I guess I am exhibiting teenage angst? Dont jump so far to your conclusions.

Edited May 2, 2011 by RockRaines

[Balta1701]

Official photo from the White House briefing room yesterday.

 

[BigSqwert]

Here is another piece in which I subjectively found interesting. This time I will quote the article instead of just linking it.

 

Chris Hedges Speaks on Osama bin Laden’s Death

 

I know that because of this announcement, that reportedly Osama bin Laden was killed, Bob wanted me to say a few words about it … about al-Qaida. I spent a year of my life covering al-Qaida for The New York Times. It was the work in which I, and other investigative reporters, won the Pulitzer Prize. And I spent seven years of my life in the Middle East. I was the Middle East bureau chief for The New York Times. I’m an Arabic speaker. And when someone came over and told Jean and me the news, my stomach sank. I’m not in any way naïve about what al-Qaida is. It’s an organization that terrifies me. I know it intimately.

 

But I’m also intimately familiar with the collective humiliation that we have imposed on the Muslim world. The expansion of military occupation that took place throughout, in particular the Arab world, following 9/11—and that this presence of American imperial bases, dotted, not just in Iraq and Afghanistan, but in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Doha—is one that has done more to engender hatred and acts of terror than anything ever orchestrated by Osama bin Laden.

 

And the killing of bin Laden, who has absolutely no operational role in al-Qaida—that’s clear—he’s kind of a spiritual mentor, a kind of guide … he functions in many of the ways that Hitler functioned for the Nazi Party. We were just talking with Warren about Kershaw’s great biography of Hitler, which I read a few months ago, where you hold up a particular ideological ideal and strive for it. That was bin Laden’s role. But all actual acts of terror, which he may have signed off on, he no way planned.

 

I think that one of the most interesting aspects of the whole rise of al-Qaida is that when Saddam Hussein … I covered the first Gulf War, went into Kuwait with the 1st Battalion, 1st Marines, was in Basra during the Shiite uprising until I was captured and taken prisoner by the Iraqi Republican Guard. I like to say I was embedded with the Iraqi Republican Guard. Within that initial assault and occupation of Kuwait, bin Laden appealed to the Saudi government to come back and help organize the defense of his country. And he was turned down. And American troops came in and implanted themselves on Muslim soil.

 

When I was in New York, as some of you were, on 9/11, I was in Times Square when the second plane hit. I walked into The New York Times, I stuffed notebooks in my pocket and walked down the West Side Highway and was at Ground Zero four hours later. I was there when Building 7 collapsed. And I watched as a nation drank deep from that very dark elixir of American nationalism … the flip side of nationalism is always racism, it’s about self-exaltation and the denigration of the other.

 

And it’s about forgetting that terrorism is a tactic. You can’t make war on terror. Terrorism has been with us since Sallust wrote about it in the Jugurthine wars. And the only way to successfully fight terrorist groups is to isolate [them], isolate those groups, within their own societies. And I was in the immediate days after 9/11 assigned to go out to Jersey City and the places where the hijackers had lived and begin to piece together their lives. I was then very soon transferred to Paris, where I covered all of al-Qaida’s operations in the Middle East and Europe.

 

So I was in the Middle East in the days after 9/11. And we had garnered the empathy of not only most of the world, but the Muslim world who were appalled at what had been done in the name of their religion. And we had major religious figures like Sheikh Tantawi, the head of al-Azhar—who died recently—who after the attacks of 9/11 not only denounced them as a crime against humanity, which they were, but denounced Osama bin Laden as a fraud … someone who had no right to issue fatwas or religious edicts, no religious legitimacy, no religious training. And the tragedy was that if we had the courage to be vulnerable, if we had built on that empathy, we would be far safer and more secure today than we are.

 

We responded exactly as these terrorist organizations wanted us to respond. They wanted us to speak the language of violence. What were the explosions that hit the World Trade Center, huge explosions and death above a city skyline? It was straight out of Hollywood. When Robert McNamara in 1965 began the massive bombing campaign of North Vietnam, he did it because he said he wanted to “send a message” to the North Vietnamese—a message that left hundreds of thousands of civilians dead.

 

These groups learned to speak the language we taught them. And our response was to speak in kind. The language of violence, the language of occupation—the occupation of the Middle East, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan—has been the best recruiting tool al-Qaida has been handed. If it is correct that Osama bin Laden is dead, then it will spiral upwards with acts of suicidal vengeance. And I expect most probably on American soil. The tragedy of the Middle East is one where we proved incapable of communicating in any other language than the brute and brutal force of empire.

 

And empire finally, as Thucydides understood, is a disease. As Thucydides wrote, the tyranny that the Athenian empire imposed on others it finally imposed on itself. The disease of empire, according to Thucydides, would finally kill Athenian democracy. And the disease of empire, the disease of nationalism … these of course are mirrored in the anarchic violence of these groups, but one that locks us in a kind of frightening death spiral. So while I certainly fear al-Qaida, I know its intentions. I know how it works. I spent months of my life reconstructing every step Mohamed Atta took. While I don’t in any way minimize their danger, I despair. I despair that we as a country, as Nietzsche understood, have become the monster that we are attempting to fight.

 

Thank you.

[StrangeSox]

I agree with Rock. The guy is clearly on his pulpit just halfway through the first paragraph. What a pompous ass.

 

Yeah, Greenwald tends to come across as a pompous ass pretty often. That wasn't what I was commenting on.

 

Thats funny, because all I said is the evaluation was subjective and that I had a differing opinion.

 

No, that's not all you said. You said it was a "look at me piece," and in combination with this earlier post:

Theres always going to be someone with a differing opinion because they like to be different.

 

It looks like you're dismissing the opinions of anyone who is even a little taken aback by the reactions of Americans portrayed on TV is just doing so far attention, like a teenage acting out would.

 

 

I am not cheerleading, instead spending my time thankful for the retribution of the murder of people I knew and my friends knew. My night last night was spent reflecting and remembering those we lost, since its not something we are reminded of every day.

 

That's more the reaction I would have expected. Gatherings, obviously a positive mood, maybe some vigils and remembrance for the victims. Not cheering*, not chanting, not unbridled nationalism because we killed a Bad Guy.

 

*No problem with the Phillies-Mets type stuff, just to clarify.

Edited May 2, 2011 by StrangeSox

[Balta1701]

Two moments during the raid were particularly "heartstopping," according to one official.

 

The first was when the operation's helicopters first arrived at the scene. The plan was for the choppers to hover and lower 12 Seals to the ground rather than land. But one of the choppers stopped working due to a lack of air within the high compound walls.

 

It made a soft landing (not a crash) on the ground and the raid went forward. At that point a third "emergency" chopper on standby came to the scene.

 

As the team returned with bin Laden's body, they blew up the broken chopper, which resulted in a "massive explosion." The team exited in two helicopters.

 

The other tense moment came when the choppers were leaving the country but remained within Pakistani airspace. The Pakistanis, seeing the choppers and not knowing if they were friendly or not, scrambled their fighter jets, causing white knuckles before the helicopters were able to leave.

Link

[Milkman delivers]

Welp, stopped reading that after the second paragraph lol

[Steve9347]

Official photo from the White House briefing room yesterday.

 

Wow, Hillary looks like she's going to vomit.

[bigruss]

 

Is this a fitting celebration?

I saw nothing wrong with that celebration, I saw group signing, USA chants, and college kids just screaming "ya!!!!" into a camera as they walked by, and a ton of peace signs.

 

Some idiots climbed on some poles, but there weren't riots, people fighting, or anything truly obscene.

[Jenksismyhero]

Official photo from the White House briefing room yesterday.

 

 

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that room...

[RockRaines]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that room...

I was imagining that during the assault they were all in there watching it live like in the movie "The Rock"

[bmags]

yglesias

 

Osama Bin Laden’s Death Could Be a Great Time To Declare Victory In The “War On Terror”

 

James Fallows published a fantastic piece back in September of 2006 on the need for the country to declare victory in the “war on terror” and move away from the post-9/11 dynamic where our national life was so focused on the threat of al-Qaeda terrorism. It was a great idea then, and I think it remains a great idea now, and it’s especially timely since the death of Osama bin Laden affords an opportunity to actually make it happen. As Fallows says today, declaring victory doesn’t mean we need to start ignoring terrorism, it means we’d try to put the risks back into perspective:

 

Signifying an end to a “global war” does not mean the end of a threat. America faces a daily threat from crime; for the foreseeable future Americans and others will face a continuing threat of terrorist attack; the entire world faces a threat that the thousands of nuclear warheads still in existence could destroy millions, through accidental or deliberate misuse. But we classify all those as threats, requiring our continued vigilance and best efforts to prevent them. Rather than as ongoing, open-ended wars with the consequent distortions that wars can impose on our values, institutions, and public lives.

 

That seems correct to me. The threat to the physical security of Americans posed by terrorists needs to be put alongside the threat to physical security posed by “ordinary” criminals, by car accidents, etc. And the foreign policy significance of violent Islamists needs to be put alongside the foreign policy significance of China and India emerging as great powers on the global stage. Homeland security investments ought to meet a plausible cost-benefit test and not just take it for granted that anything done in the name of terrorism-prevention is worth doing. The primary mechanism through which terrorism works as a tactic is fear and panic, and in an ideal world the emotional catharsis we saw around the country last night should be a chance to put things on a more sustainable footing.

 

Ross Douthat makes many related points in an excellent column today.

[BrenBlackwood]

Odd symmetry here:

The first plane crashed into the twin towers while I was in the shower. I head about Bin laden's death while sitting on the toilet.

 

On a more serious note: Thumbs up to our special forces.

 

That's the most awesome thing I've ever had the pleasure of reading!!!! Hahahahaha

[lostfan]

So about 15 pages to catch up on but for the time being I need to write:

 

THANKS FOR f***ING NOTHING, YOU USELESS f***ING PAKISTANI PIECES OF s***. f*** YOU.

Edited May 2, 2011 by lostfan

[Milkman delivers]

So about 15 pages to catch up on but for the time being I need to write:

 

THANKS FOR f***ING NOTHING, YOU USELESS f***ING PAKISTANI PIECES OF s***. f*** YOU.

 

Seriously. The guy was right across the street from their West Point for possibly up to 5 years, is it?

[lostfan]

Seriously. The guy was right across the street from their West Point for possibly up to 5 years, is it?

When I first read about this I noticed that the Pakistani government was briefed AFTER the operation. lol, that speaks volumes. Would we have conducted a CT operation on British, French, Israeli, German, or s***, even Russian soil and then said "by the way..."?

[Balta1701]

When I first read about this I noticed that the Pakistani government was briefed AFTER the operation. lol, that speaks volumes. Would we have conducted a CT operation on British, French, Israeli, German, or s***, even Russian soil and then said "by the way..."?

Did you catch the thing I posted a page ago about the Pakistanis scrambling fighters?

[lostfan]

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/usama-bin-laden/view

I saw you Facebooked this but I didn't notice the "deceased." lol awesome.

[lostfan]

Did you catch the thing I posted a page ago about the Pakistanis scrambling fighters?

About the scrambling jets thing yeah. Had the Pakistani government been briefed it'd have been leaked to the ISI and everyone would've been evacuated and the whole thing would've been an embarrassing debacle to the administration.

 

If there was any doubt that the ISI was unreliable AT BEST this should be the final nail in the coffin

[lostfan]

If they could do this why haven't they already? Same with the nuke scenario.

That's what I've been asking. It's not like they haven't been trying desperately. All of a sudden we're scared? Why? I mean, the status quo hasn't changed.

[StrangeSox]

About the scrambling jets thing yeah. Had the Pakistani government been briefed it'd have been leaked to the ISI and everyone would've been evacuated and the whole thing would've been an embarrassing debacle to the administration.

 

If there was any doubt that the ISI was unreliable AT BEST this should be the final nail in the coffin

 

Yeah after hearing how it went down this morning, I assumed it was a giant "f*** you, we know you're in bed with him" to the ISI.

[lostfan]

Can we put up the real MISSION ACCOMPLISHED sign now?

It was alluded to earlier in the thread, but that speech was given on 1 May 2003

[lostfan]

Well I guess like anything else there's going to be arguments. Should we celebrate? Shouldn't we? Who gets credit? Who doesn't? Display the body? Bury the body? Bury at sea? pfft...I don't really care about any of it. I'm glad he's dead. I didn't cheer, but I'm not bothered by those he did. Different strokes for different folks.

 

What we should all agree on though...is the Navy SEALS are the most bad ass heroic individuals on the planet!!!

co-sign.

 

Well I cracked a lot of jokes and got some "f*** yous" at Osama's expense but yeah.

[greg775]

Rush was already talking about it, giving Obama credit for sticking with Bush/Republican policies that lead to this mission.

 

Rush was clearly being sarcastic if you listen to his opening monologue.

I do think Obama deserves credit BTW.

[Milkman delivers]

Yeah after hearing how it went down this morning, I assumed it was a giant "f*** you, we know you're in bed with him" to the ISI.

 

Yep, and I love it. I'm not sure if there is a better example of speaking softly and carrying a big stick.

[Stocking]

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."

Martin Luther King, Jr.