Osama Bin Laden Dead

[lostfan]

Think about it in this sense. Say one or two high ranking officials, a couple of generals, were well aware of it. In any military (correct me if I'm wrong, lostfan or any of the other veterans), aren't any subordinates going to just follow the order to ignore that location? I'm sure there would be plenty of people who had their doubts and reservations, but isn't it also highly frowned upon to go over someone's head in the military?

Sort of, maybe. Depends on the military I guess, a need-to-know kind of thing. Maybe you're not so much told not to go somewhere as much as you're just not told to go somewhere. If you're the lowest ranking soldier, or just a NCO or junior officer running that team, you probably aren't questioning it. You'd just be one piece of the picture.

[lostfan]

I don't think you can blame the guy. The president of any country isn't going to come out and say one or more of his highest ranking officials was conspiring with one of the world's most wanted men. He had to paint the picture that Pakistan had a united front against him on the side of the US. And for what it's worth, I believe that to be the case for the most part. 90something% of Pakistani officials were probably intent on aiding in the capture or murder of bin Laden. But as is the case with many things, it only takes a couple of people working against the others to prevent or delay it.

He did it for the same reason that Obama gave the bulls*** line about how he appreciates Pakistan's help in the speech and strained not to call them out when you know he wanted to. It's just kind of expected diplomatic protocol. Still funny though.

[StrangeSox]

Whoa, this is crazy

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2011/05/...unterterrorism/

 

saw that yesterday, interesting stuff.

[kapkomet]

You just rejected the entire US legal system and the US Constitution. But, if there ever was a case where we should throw it out, this would be the one.

 

 

And you want to even implicitly say this guy was covered under US law?

 

I will never, ever get the internationalization of the US Constitution.

[StrangeSox]

FYI, torture isn't what led us to OBL.

[Balta1701]

He did it for the same reason that Obama gave the bulls*** line about how he appreciates Pakistan's help in the speech and strained not to call them out when you know he wanted to. It's just kind of expected diplomatic protocol. Still funny though.

However, the congress is free to say whatever they want, and Carl levin, for example, is ripping them.

[lostfan]

FYI, torture isn't what led us to OBL.

Yeah I was wondering where all that was coming from with the claims about it vindicating waterboarding and whatever (btw this article says waterboarding had nothing to do with it and then says where it might have). All they got was the guy's nickname which was kind of "hey we might have something."We don't even know if they gave up that info while actually being waterboarded. It may or may not have slightly contributed to the full mission and we don't even know if the information actually came from waterboarding since they were also interrogated other times. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement or anything.

 

It's kind of an irrelevant point in terms of the big picture.

[Texsox]

This would make sense if not for the fact that they (Pak military) routinely checked the area for operatives, literally going door to door checking ID's. They should have known that this compound held a target of some level of importance. That's the extent of the US decision to check this place out - it looked way too big and secure for it to be a nobody.

 

Right, and I would think he was hiding and they had the kind of IDs that being a billionaire could secure. They could have assumed it was a drug kingpin, a mistress for the President, a Russian mobster, or almost anything else. Who really would have assumed it was bin Laden? Like I said, I am leaving the possibility there that they could have been fooled. After all is everyone who lives in a secure gated community in the US doing something illegal? But it is more likely someone high up in Pakistan was protecting him.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah I was wondering where all that was coming from with the claims about it vindicating waterboarding and whatever (btw this article says waterboarding had nothing to do with it and then says where it might have). All they got was the guy's nickname which was kind of "hey we might have something."We don't even know if they gave up that info while actually being waterboarded. It may or may not have slightly contributed to the full mission and we don't even know if the information actually came from waterboarding since they were also interrogated other times. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement or anything.

 

It's kind of an irrelevant point in terms of the big picture.

 

It was just political *rah*rah* "my team is #winning!"

[Jenksismyhero]

Panetta confirmed advanced interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, produced the intel they needed to find Bin Laden. If it didn't play a part I don't see why he wouldn't have just said so.

[lostfan]

Who did what and when is irrelevant and first-class political hackery (besides writing a post about how frustrated I get with US foreign policy I haven't done that in this thread and I won't). People that work in the intelligence community do it for a career and they have no term limits so their work on long-term projects like this will span multiple administrations. So, really, if someone wanted to play THAT game and be honest they'd have to go all the way back to the Clinton Administration.

Edited May 4, 2011 by lostfan

[Texsox]

Panetta confirmed advanced interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, produced the intel they needed to find Bin Laden. If it didn't play a part I don't see why he wouldn't have just said so.

 

The question will be how much of a part and would the intel have happened without those techniques, or even would it have been better intel which might have saved time. And the worse part is it is impossible to predict, Did enhanced techniques cause them to chase other locations and leads which were false? That's what I really dislike about the discussion, you cannot say with certainty.

[kapkomet]

The question will be how much of a part and would the intel have happened without those techniques, or even would it have been better intel which might have saved time. And the worse part is it is impossible to predict, Did enhanced techniques cause them to chase other locations and leads which were false? That's what I really dislike about the discussion, you cannot say with certainty.

 

 

No, you can't. And that's why they always throw that line out there. "You can never be certain". Of course not, let's continue every straw man arguement there is to make it look like the political discourse has changed somehow. Guess what, it hasn't.

[Quin]

Jon Stewart going back to town.

[Texsox]

No, you can't. And that's why they always throw that line out there. "You can never be certain". Of course not, let's continue every straw man arguement there is to make it look like the political discourse has changed somehow. Guess what, it hasn't.

 

I do not believe this is a political discussion unless you believe that all Reps believe in torture and all Dems are against it. I believe it is more a moral *and* practical one. What will you say or admit to if "enhanced" techniques are being used? Someone then has to check out those leads. If you are telling me you won't lie under duress and say whatever to make the "enhanced" techniques stop, then you are a better man than I. If the bombing in Tora Bora was successful, would they have credit the enhanced techniques for that? Or was that a red herring tossed out by someone wishing to make the "enhanced" techniques stop?

[Texsox]

I wonder what enhanced technique she used to get the tip?

 

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/05/o...ur-in-2008.html

 

ABC News' Christiane Amanpour reports:

 

Osama bin Laden killed in a Pakistan villa, not in a cave? Who would have thought that?

 

Actually, that's what a U.S. intelligence officer who had recently left a top position told me about where bin Laden was living back in the fall of 2008.

 

Of all places, it came up in conversation a few days later when I made an appearance on HBO's "Real Time With Bill Maher." Fellow panelists, actor Alec Baldwin and comedian Gary Shandling, were ribbing me, but I got the information out anyway:

 

"I just talked to somebody very knowledgeable ... [who] thinks that he's in a villa, a nice comfortable villa," I said to a somewhat skeptical reaction from Bill Maher and the other guests. And I added, a villa "in Pakistan. Not a cave."

 

I remembered that tip when I heard bin Laden was caught living a life of comfort in a compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, perhaps for as long as five or six years. However, I did not remember I had said it on air. But here it is:

[knightni]

I wonder what enhanced technique she used to get the tip?

 

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/05/o...ur-in-2008.html

 

[BigSqwert]

Panetta confirmed advanced interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, produced the intel they needed to find Bin Laden. If it didn't play a part I don't see why he wouldn't have just said so.

Rumsfeld:

 

“It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”

[StrangeSox]

[Balta1701]

Panetta confirmed advanced interrogation techniques, including waterboarding, produced the intel they needed to find Bin Laden. If it didn't play a part I don't see why he wouldn't have just said so.

If that's true, then that means waterboarding has been resumed some time after 2007.

[Balta1701]

Rumsfeld:

 

“It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”

Here's Panetta's original quote.

"In the intelligence business you work from a lot of sources of information and that was true here," he told NBC News. "It's a little difficult to say it was due just to one source of information that we got. I think some of the detainees clearly were, you know, they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of these detainees."

With a studder thrown in there it's not exactly clear what he's saying.

[Balta1701]

WTF is wrong with Virginia's Attorney General?!?

@KenCuccinelli Ken Cuccinelli

How much would I give to be one of the 72 Virginans Osama is 'hanging out' with since Sunday?

[Jenksismyhero]

Here's Panetta's original quote.

With a studder thrown in there it's not exactly clear what he's saying.

 

How about the actual transcript:

 

 

BRIAN WILLIAMS:

I'd like to ask you about the sourcing on the intel that ultimately led to this successful attack. Can you confirm that it was-- as a result of water boarding that we learned what we needed to learn to go after Bin Laden?

 

LEON PANETTA:

It-- you know, Brian, in the intelligence business you work from a lot of sources of information and that was true here. We had a multiple source-- a multiple series of-- sources that provided information with regards to the situation. Clearly some of it came from detainees and the interrogation of detainees but we also had information from other sources as well.

 

From Sigent intelligence, from imagery, from other sources that we had-- assets on the ground. And it was a combination of all of that that ultimately we were able to put together that led us to that compound. So-- it's-- it's a little difficult to say it was due just to one source of information that we got.

 

BRIAN WILLIAMS:

Turned around the other way, are you denying that water boarding was, in part, among the tactics used to extract the intelligence that led to this successful mission?

 

LEON PANETTA:

No, I think some of the detainees clearly were, you know, they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of these detainees. But I'm also saying that, you know, the debate about whether-- whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always going to be an open question.

 

BRIAN WILLIAMS:

So finer point, one final time, enhanced interrogation techniques, which has always been kind of a handy euphemism in these post-9/11 years. That--

 

LEON PANETTA:

Right.

 

BRIAN WILLIAMS:

--in-- includes water boarding?

 

LEON PANETTA:

That's correct.

 

He had three opportunities to say "waterboarding was not one of the techniques used." But he didn't. Clearly we have no idea to what degree it was used and what it actually produced.

 

And i'm not trying to start up a waterboarding discussion. I was just responding to SS's link of the blogger who was theorizing that it didn't play a part.

[bmags]

that doesn't clarify whether the detainees had waterboarding done to them or whether the info came thru waterboarding. Nonetheless the idea that this guys name came after torture and we showed up on its doorstep is stupid.

[bmags]

so, this is cool:http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1766790

 

In his paper he finds that retaliatory violence is less common after the removal of Tier 1 leaders than Midlevel Tier 3 Leaders.