WCSox Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 I have a difficult time blaming the GM for proven talent not getting it done on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ May 4, 2011 -> 01:47 PM) I have a difficult time blaming the GM for proven talent not getting it done on the field. How about when proven talent turns 35? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (bigruss22 @ May 4, 2011 -> 12:56 PM) How about when proven talent turns 35? So you'd fire Bill Smith as Twins' GM before KW? Just curious. Because they went all internal to replace Guerrier/Rauch/Fuentes/Guerrier, took a big risk with Nishioka's contract, didn't have any back-up plan for Casilla/Tolbert at SS, etc. Edited May 4, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ May 4, 2011 -> 11:56 AM) How about when proven talent turns 35? Only PK and Castro are that old. AJP is 34. The vast majority of our lineup and rotation are in the prime of their careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (WCSox @ May 4, 2011 -> 01:05 PM) Only PK and Castro are that old. AJP is 34. The vast majority of our lineup and rotation are in the prime of their careers. Pierre is also clearly past his prime, especially with all that wear and tear on his body from the stolen bases and clearly has lost 2-3 steps in a decade. Dunn's also on the downside of his prime seasons, although still relatively young. And we have to assume Teahen and Beckham still have primes in front of them. Edited May 4, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 JP had a prime? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 4, 2011 -> 12:12 PM) Pierre is also clearly past his prime, especially with all that wear and tear on his body from the stolen bases and clearly has lost 2-3 steps in a decade. Dunn's also on the downside of his prime seasons, although still relatively young. Dunn is only 31. He should still be mega-productive at that age. Quentin and Rios are in their late 20's, so no excuses there either. Four of our 5 starters are also under the age of 30. This team's problem isn't age. It's production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ May 4, 2011 -> 03:31 PM) JP had a prime? I know you hate him, but he did have a few productive years where he was a crucial piece to the teams he was on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ May 4, 2011 -> 02:31 PM) JP had a prime? :lolhitting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ May 4, 2011 -> 01:47 PM) I have a difficult time blaming the GM for proven talent not getting it done on the field. He has been here for a decade and what's continually the weakest division in the AL, we have two playoff appearances. Even with our WS, that was five years ago -- the results just haven't been there. It's time for him to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 I don't understand the obsession with having to put the blame on a single entity. When someone says it's Ozzie's fault, another person has to argue that it's more on KW. When someone puts it on KW, someone says it's more on the individual players, etc. Who cares who's got the most share of the blame? I certainly don't anymore. This team has underachieved far too much for far too long. Nobody's job should be safe at this point, not a single person in the front office/coaching staff/lineup. I don't give a s*** if Ozzie Guillen deserves one half of a percentage point more of the blame than Williams. I just don't give a flying f*** about either of them or any of the players and coaches. They can all get f***ed and I hope to see some wholesale changes as soon as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ May 4, 2011 -> 01:47 PM) I have a difficult time blaming the GM for proven talent not getting it done on the field. The problem is that being a GM is an inexact science, and every move you make is inherently a gamble, even with "proven" veterans. KW has lost (or is losing) just about every trade or move he's made since about the 2007 off season. Eventually, you just need to accept that maybe your GM just doesn't have "it" anymore and move on. Am I going to blame KW for every individual thing that has gone wrong with this team? No. He certainly deserves a lot of the blame, though (see: moves KW has made in the last 3 years). QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ May 4, 2011 -> 04:01 PM) I don't understand the obsession with having to put the blame on a single entity. When someone says it's Ozzie's fault, another person has to argue that it's more on KW. When someone puts it on KW, someone says it's more on the individual players, etc. Who cares who's got the most share of the blame? I certainly don't anymore. This team has underachieved far too much for far too long. Nobody's job should be safe at this point, not a single person in the front office/coaching staff/lineup. I don't give a s*** if Ozzie Guillen deserves one half of a percentage point more of the blame than Williams. I just don't give a flying f*** about either of them or any of the players and coaches. They can all get f***ed and I hope to see some wholesale changes as soon as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Other than identifying Santos and acquiring him, there's nothing this F.O. has done well since 2008. You can argue Viciedo, Sale and Beckham all you want, but those aren't winning arguments for the time being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ May 4, 2011 -> 04:01 PM) I don't understand the obsession with having to put the blame on a single entity. When someone says it's Ozzie's fault, another person has to argue that it's more on KW. When someone puts it on KW, someone says it's more on the individual players, etc. I don't understand the need to infer what was not written. I think the state of the 2011 White Sox is a collaborative effort. I, however, have stated my undying love for Kenny on many an occassion, and I am finally posting that he's on my hot seat and he needs to be heald accountable for his off-the-wall spending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ May 4, 2011 -> 04:25 PM) I don't understand the need to infer what was not written. I think the state of the 2011 White Sox is a collaborative effort. I, however, have stated my undying love for Kenny on many an occassion, and I am finally posting that he's on my hot seat and he needs to be heald accountable for his off-the-wall spending. Nicely played I wasn't just saying that stuff in reference to you, though. These types of threads always lead to people getting into arguments over who needs to be blamed more. I'm saying that it doesn't even matter at this point. Clean house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ May 4, 2011 -> 01:39 PM) He has been here for a decade and what's continually the weakest division in the AL, we have two playoff appearances. Even with our WS, that was five years ago -- the results just haven't been there. It's time for him to go. That's a very simplistic way to look at it. He's put competitive teams on the field for much of his 10+ years as GM, and that's his job. The on-field TALENT is clearly there. In the past two years, he's added Dunn, Jackson, Peavy, and Rios (not to mention Danks, Floyd, Quentin, and Alexei prior to that). So it's difficult to argue that he's not giving the coaching staff enough to work with. If anything, Kenny's problem is that he hasn't fired the coaching staff. But I don't know how much control he has over that, especially with JR being so loyal to Ozzie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostfan Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 The last front office-type figure that I can recall being fired for subpar performance was fired because he got f***ing indicted, so that doesn't really count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisoxt Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ May 4, 2011 -> 09:39 PM) He has been here for a decade and what's continually the weakest division in the AL, we have two playoff appearances. Even with our WS, that was five years ago -- the results just haven't been there. It's time for him to go. Not only that...Kenny has had a larger payroll to work with. I am of the opinion, that some GMs work better with a more limited payroll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 QUOTE (lostfan @ May 4, 2011 -> 05:27 PM) The last front office-type figure that I can recall being fired for subpar performance was fired because he got f***ing indicted, so that doesn't really count. Larry Himes got fired after he built a team that won 94 games with the lowest payroll in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ May 4, 2011 -> 03:01 PM) I don't understand the obsession with having to put the blame on a single entity. When someone says it's Ozzie's fault, another person has to argue that it's more on KW. When someone puts it on KW, someone says it's more on the individual players, etc. Who cares who's got the most share of the blame? I certainly don't anymore. This team has underachieved far too much for far too long. Nobody's job should be safe at this point, not a single person in the front office/coaching staff/lineup. I don't give a s*** if Ozzie Guillen deserves one half of a percentage point more of the blame than Williams. I just don't give a flying f*** about either of them or any of the players and coaches. They can all get f***ed and I hope to see some wholesale changes as soon as possible. I am whitesoxfan101 and I approve of this message. Couldn't have said it better myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 J4L for GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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