You are KW/JR. You have the power

[Dick Allen]

They said they are all in. They probably all deserve to get canned now, but I think they should play it out and if they fall short this year, clean house. New GM, new manager, new coaching staff, new era.

 

All in IMO means your bes shot. If this is their best shot, major changes need to be made.

[hogan873]

I watched the end of today's game while remaining positive.

I just was amazed (again) at the awful at bats in the ninth.

Their closer looked like horses***. We're at home, a supposedly desperate team and we can't at least TIE the game?

 

I hate to be a negative nancy this season, but god, how much can a sane person take?? It's driving me crazy watching it.

I'd rather see a guest fan come to bat with the game on the line than Juan Pierre and Omar.

This team is dead on their feet right now. I knew last night's game would end as a no hitter watching the hitters come up to plate and look lost. Actually, lost isn't the right word, they looked disinterested, like they weren't trying.

[Dick Allen]

I try to remain positive, and for some reason I still watch the games. However, I'm starting to think that watching a Kids Can Play II team would be much more enjoyable than watching what's going on now.

Until the Sox actually have Kids who can play, Kids Can Play II is going to be brutal.

[hogan873]

They said they are all in. They probably all deserve to get canned now, but I think they should play it out and if they fall short this year, clean house. New GM, new manager, new coaching staff, new era.

 

All in IMO means your bes shot. If this is their best shot, major changes need to be made.

Perfectly said.

[Balta1701]

Until the Sox actually have Kids who can play, Kids Can Play II is going to be brutal.

If they can dump some contracts they can at least make it quick though

[iamshack]

They said they are all in. They probably all deserve to get canned now, but I think they should play it out and if they fall short this year, clean house. New GM, new manager, new coaching staff, new era.

 

All in IMO means your bes shot. If this is their best shot, major changes need to be made.

I'm as disappointed as the next person, if not more, but I think it's a bit disingenuous for any of us to pretend as though we saw anything like this coming. Sure, some of us had our concerns, but this is defying all explanation.

 

I think criticisms like this are unfair and invalid.

[Dick Allen]

I'm as disappointed as the next person, if not more, but I think it's a bit disingenuous for any of us to pretend as though we saw anything like this coming. Sure, some of us had our concerns, but this is defying all explanation.

 

I think criticisms like this are unfair and invalid.

Why? There were plenty of publications that had the Sox an average at best team. I liked the roster, but I don't get paid millions to construct it. If the team is bad, its on the White Sox organization. If they are all in and the team falls flat on its face, its time for someone different to make decisions. If you can't recognize or admit mistakes, you keep making them. KW has been real good with off the radar acquisitions the past several years. His big ticket moves have mostly blown up in his face so far. I loved the Peavy trade, but there's no denying just because I liked it, it was a mistake. I liked the Dunn signing, but if he doesn't pick it up soon, it was a mistake. I liked the Jackson trade, but if the Sox don't win and he leaves, it was a mistake. Alex Rios is still owed $50 million. Picking him up was a mistake. A lot of people loved the Swisher trade. It was a mistake.

 

Results are what matters. Not the backs of baseball cards from previous seasons. I don't know where the "criticism is unfair". If this is the best he could do, its not good enough and there has been a pattern developing here. They are below .500 vs. the AL since winning the World Series. Interleague can't come soon enough for this team. As I posted, I'd give them all the season to turn it around. If this crap continues, everyone needs to go.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

Why? There were plenty of publications that had the Sox an average at best team. I liked the roster, but I don't get paid millions to construct it. If the team is bad, its on the White Sox organization. If they are all in and the team falls flat on its face, its time for someone different to make decisions. If you can't recognize or admit mistakes, you keep making them. KW has been real good with off the radar acquisitions the past several years. His big ticket moves have mostly blown up in his face so far. I loved the Peavy trade, but there's no denying just because I liked it, it was a mistake. I liked the Dunn signing, but if he doesn't pick it up soon, it was a mistake. I liked the Jackson trade, but if the Sox don't win and he leaves, it was a mistake. Alex Rios is still owed $50 million. Picking him up was a mistake. A lot of people loved the Swisher trade. It was a mistake.

 

Results are what matters. Not the backs of baseball cards from previous seasons. I don't know where the "criticism is unfair". If this is the best he could do, its not good enough and there has been a pattern developing here. They are below .500 vs. the AL since winning the World Series. Interleague can't come soon enough for this team.

You think 30 games is enough to declare the Dunn signing a mistake.

 

That's really all I have to say.

[Dick Allen]

You think 30 games is enough to declare the Dunn signing a mistake.

 

That's really all I have to say.

NIce try. You really need to read a little better. I wrote if he doesn't pick it up soon. If he doesn't this season is in jeapordy and the White Sox window may be closed. $14 million a year DH's on non contenders usually isn't a good idea.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

NIce try. You really need to read a little better. I wrote if he doesn't pick it up soon. If he doesn't this season is in jeapordy and the White Sox window may be closed. $14 million a year DH's on non contenders usually isn't a good idea.

Even if Dunn does pick it up, it might be too late.

[iamshack]

NIce try. You really need to read a little better. I wrote if he doesn't pick it up soon. If he doesn't this season is in jeapordy and the White Sox window may be closed. $14 million a year DH's on non contenders usually isn't a good idea.

Oh, so 38 games in would be a suitable sample size for whether a 4-year contract was wise?

 

DA, I admit you make some valid points and I admit that just because a signing or acquisition seemed wise at the time doesn't negate results. And I am in agreement that the responsibility ultimately falls on the GM, regardless of what a player's history might have suggested at the time of the deal. As the old adage goes, better to trade a player a year early than a year late. Perhaps we have been acquiring some of these players a year late. But hindsight is 20/20, and the complete collapse of several players who have track records which would never suggest the performance we have seen is certainly not something that can just be completely ignored.

 

The bigger concern to me is not who is to blame right now but rather why has this happened in the past and why does it continue to happen to us? Why have we had so many talented rosters not perform up to their potential, over a span of different managers, different clubhouses, against different competition, etc? What can be done to prevent this from happening again?

 

I still believe there is too much talent on this team to not put together a prolonged stretch of very good baseball, but I am ultimately in agreement that some changes have to be made at the top.

 

I just don't subscribe to the notion of criticism that implies that any of us could have seen this coming.

[Dick Allen]

Oh, so 38 games in would be a suitable sample size for whether a 4-year contract was wise?

 

DA, I admit you make some valid points and I admit that just because a signing or acquisition seemed wise at the time doesn't negate results. And I am in agreement that the responsibility ultimately falls on the GM, regardless of what a player's history might have suggested at the time of the deal. As the old adage goes, better to trade a player a year early than a year late. Perhaps we have been acquiring some of these players a year late. But hindsight is 20/20, and the complete collapse of several players who have track records which would never suggest the performance we have seen is certainly not something that can just be completely ignored.

 

The bigger concern to me is not who is to blame right now but rather why has this happened in the past and why does it continue to happen to us? Why have we had so many talented rosters not perform up to their potential, over a span of different managers, different clubhouses, against different competition, etc? What can be done to prevent this from happening again?

 

I still believe there is too much talent on this team to not put together a prolonged stretch of very good baseball, but I am ultimately in agreement that some changes have to be made at the top.

 

I just don't subscribe to the notion of criticism that implies that any of us could have seen this coming.

That's why I said give it the season. Changing GMs or managers or coaches really isn't going to make a difference right now. At the end of the year, if the team was crap JR shouldn't decide which of KW or Ozzie to keep, he should get rid of them both, and take all the coaches with them. I would also imagine the KW/Ozzie relationship has a good chance of going sour if the losing continues, because fingers will be pointed, things will be said. I hope this works and still think there's a chance, but if it doesn't, I hope JR decides to try something else. These seasons are starting to seem like re-runs.

[iamshack]

That's why I said give it the season. Changing GMs or managers or coaches really isn't going to make a difference right now. At the end of the year, if the team was crap JR shouldn't decide which of KW or Ozzie to keep, he should get rid of them both, and take all the coaches with them. I would also imagine the KW/Ozzie relationship has a good chance of going sour if the losing continues, because fingers will be pointed, things will be said. I hope this works and still think there's a chance, but if it doesn't, I hope JR decides to try something else. These seasons are starting to seem like re-runs.

Well, I'm all in favor of bringing in Dave Martinez. And I think doing that now could pay dividends this season. I do worry about losing Cooper, although I don't want to argue this because I know you don't feel the same way.

 

Edit: Then again, I'm not really sure poaching other team's coaches in the middle of the season is really something that happens, so we might be stuck with some kind of interim manager. I wouldn't even mind having Cooper take the reigns.

Edited May 5, 2011 by iamshack

[Dick Allen]

Well, I'm all in favor of bringing in Dave Martinez. And I think doing that now could pay dividends this season. I do worry about losing Cooper, although I don't want to argue this because I know you don't feel the same way.

I'm really not anti Cooper, I just like to point out that when hitters don't perform Walker needs to go, but when pitchers don't perform Cooper gets zero blame. I'd like it to be more consistent.

[bigruss]

Cooper as interim manager, and depending on what he shows you go get a new coach in the offseason and if Coop and the new coach can work together, great, if not, the new manager gets his man at pitching coach.

[iamshack]

Cooper as interim manager, and depending on what he shows you go get a new coach in the offseason and if Coop and the new coach can work together, great, if not, the new manager gets his man at pitching coach.

I think it's safe to say Cooper would never preside over the team as interim manager, and then yield to some other manager next year, especially considering he has the Yankees knocking on his door.

[bigruss]

I think it's safe to say Cooper would never preside over the team as interim manager, and then yield to some other manager next year, especially considering he has the Yankees knocking on his door.

True, but a new manager has to have the ability to choose his staff, so it's a risk to see if Coop has what it takes to manage or risk losing him in the offseason.

[Andrew]

Why? There were plenty of publications that had the Sox an average at best team. I liked the roster, but I don't get paid millions to construct it. If the team is bad, its on the White Sox organization. If they are all in and the team falls flat on its face, its time for someone different to make decisions. If you can't recognize or admit mistakes, you keep making them. KW has been real good with off the radar acquisitions the past several years. His big ticket moves have mostly blown up in his face so far. I loved the Peavy trade, but there's no denying just because I liked it, it was a mistake. I liked the Dunn signing, but if he doesn't pick it up soon, it was a mistake. I liked the Jackson trade, but if the Sox don't win and he leaves, it was a mistake. Alex Rios is still owed $50 million. Picking him up was a mistake. A lot of people loved the Swisher trade. It was a mistake.

 

Results are what matters. Not the backs of baseball cards from previous seasons. I don't know where the "criticism is unfair". If this is the best he could do, its not good enough and there has been a pattern developing here. They are below .500 vs. the AL since winning the World Series. Interleague can't come soon enough for this team. As I posted, I'd give them all the season to turn it around. If this crap continues, everyone needs to go.

 

We've covered this.

 

KW makes the team, Ozzie is the day to day and is responsible for the work environment.

 

There is no reason that the "team" as constructed shouldn't be better than anyone in this division...by far.

 

But watch 'em show for work and report to the manager. They don't report to KW. They report to Ozzie. As he trots them out to s***ty out (bunts) after out (steals) after out (matchups) after fail.

 

Oh, and slump for weeks on end because it's "not coaches fault players can't recover from slumps" at the "major league level".

 

Fire f***ing Ozzie, already. Fire Cora. Fire Walker. It's goddamn obvious nobody wants to even show up for work and try.

 

That's on him - we already know players are spoiled, crying babies. That's every team.

 

Maddon, Francona...plenty others don't become the worst team in baseball over a few slumps and prolonged losing like his team does...baggage over rivals (Twins), bigger payroll then the next by more than double.... (And I'm not comparing to the Twin THIS year, but they still managed to revive them).

 

f***ing joke.

 

[Wow, that felt good]

Edited May 5, 2011 by Andrew

[caulfield12]

Here's another way of looking at it.

 

Subtract all the bad moves over the last 2-3 seasons, let's see if we have a competitive roster.

 

 

Rotation

Danks

Floyd

Gio Gonzalez

Buehrle

Daniel Hudson

 

Bullpen

Clayton Richard (long man)

Sox minor leaguer

Sale (or in AAA starting)

Crain

Thornton

S. Santos

 

 

RF Ryan Sweeney

SS Alexei Ramirez/Beckham

LF Carlos Quentin

1B Paul Konerko

CF Chris Young

3B Dayan Viciedo/Josh Fields

DH Jermaine Dye/Br. Allen/Fields/Viciedo

C AJ Pierzynski

2B Gordon Beckham/Ramirez

 

Trying to figure out the line-up, it's pretty obvious why KW felt he had to go to Rios, Pierre, AJ and Teahen. At that point, seemingly they'd already decided Viciedo wasn't ready for the position.

 

Then you have the lack of development internally at the catching position, leaving us with no viable everyday option but AJ.

 

 

The pitching would definitely be better. The offense would be more enjoyable with the youthful presence, it's hard for me to argue it would actually be better, because Rios and Dunn are both very talented players. Of course, so is Chris B. Young.

 

It definitely would be a more inexpensive payroll and provide much more flexibility. The starting rotation has a LOT of depth with Sale and Richard backing it up.

 

Would we have been more excited if this was the Sox roster heading into 2011? Allen obviously could be replaced by someone like Johnny Damon fairly cheaply (or Vladimir Guerrero), making the starting line-up appear even more dangerous.

Edited May 5, 2011 by caulfield12

[Andrew]

Here's another way of looking at it.

 

Subtract all the bad moves over the last 2-3 seasons, let's see if we have a competitive roster.

 

 

Rotation

Danks

Floyd

Gio Gonzalez

Buehrle

Daniel Hudson

 

Bullpen

Clayton Richard (long man)

Sox minor leaguer

Sale (or in AAA starting)

Crain

Thornton

S. Santos

 

 

RF Ryan Sweeney

SS Alexei Ramirez/Beckham

LF Carlos Quentin

1B Paul Konerko

CF Chris Young

3B Dayan Viciedo

DH Br. Allen

C AJ Pierzynski

2B Gordon Beckham/Ramirez

 

Trying to figure out the line-up, it's pretty obvious why KW felt he had to go to Rios, Pierre, AJ and Teahen. At that point, seemingly they'd already decided Viciedo wasn't ready for the position.

 

Then you have the lack of development internally at the catching position, leaving us with no viable everyday option but AJ.

 

 

The pitching would definitely be better. The offense would be more enjoyable with the youthful presence, it's hard for me to argue it would actually be better, because Rios and Dunn are both very talented players. Of course, so is Chris B. Young.

 

It definitely would be a more inexpensive payroll and provide much more flexibility. The starting rotation has a LOT of depth with Sale and Richard backing it up.

 

Would we have been more excited if this was the Sox roster heading into 2011? Allen obviously could be replaced by someone like Johnny Damon fairly cheaply (or Vladimir Guerrero), making the starting line-up appear even more dangerous.

 

Sweet post, C12. Some moves are not as cut and dry as you translate them but the point is there. We could be far less expensive and certainly no worse than...well, the worst in baseball.

 

Gio...man, twice we had him and twice we gave up. I think I remember you from WSI days arguing (together) about how stupid it was to let him go (I think the...2nd time). I could be wrong though.

 

[caulfield12]

We've covered this.

 

KW makes the team, Ozzie is the day to day and is responsible for the work environment.

 

There is no reason that the "team" as constructed shouldn't be better than anyone in this division...by far.

 

But watch 'em show for work and report to the manager. They don't report to KW. They report to Ozzie. As he trots them out to s***ty out (bunts) after out (steals) after out (matchups) after fail.

 

Oh, and slump for weeks on end because it's "not coaches fault players can't recover from slumps" at the "major league level".

 

Fire f***ing Ozzie, already. Fire Cora. Fire Walker. It's goddamn obvious nobody wants to even show up for work and try.

 

That's on him - we already know players are spoiled, crying babies. That's every team.

 

Maddon, Francona...plenty others don't become the worst team in baseball over a few slumps and prolonged losing like his team does...baggage over rivals (Twins), bigger payroll then the next by more than double.... (And I'm not comparing to the Twin THIS year, but they still managed to revive them).

 

f***ing joke.

 

[Wow, that felt good]

 

 

Actually, we (in the AL Central Div.) have three $100,000,000+ payrolls for the first time, but only two pennants since 1997 (Sox and Tigers back-to-back) to show for it.

 

Personally, I do agree that I'd rather see Ozzie and the coaches gone first. The main reason? 6-24 against the Twins since the second half of 2009 is simply unacceptable. That's the equivalent of the Bears beating the Packers 2 out of every 10 meetings.

 

I'm 50/50 on KW.

 

If they decide to change philosophy, I would prefer not to go with Hahn. I think they need someone more creative, who's acclimated to working with limited budgets. Let's not forget, Rick Hahn has spent most of his time with us cutting his teeth on $90-130 million rosters. That's definitely not going to be the situation for the new GM to work with going forward.

 

Here's where I would raid Friedman's Rays staff, Beinfest/Hill in Florida, some of the Twins' minor league development people.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Sweet post, C12. Some moves are not as cut and dry as you translate them but the point is there. We could be far less expensive and certainly no worse than...well, the worst in baseball.

 

Gio...man, twice we had him and twice we gave up. I think I remember you from WSI days arguing (together) about how stupid it was to let him go (I think the...2nd time). I could be wrong though.

 

 

Yeah, it's easy to cherry pick. Not really fair to go back and erase the Javy move, that's all the way into 2006. (If I started doing that, I would have gone along and magically traded Jenks and Crede at their highest values). I didn't address the Thome/Rowand deal because I preferred keeping Gio and Rowand would have grown too expensive. And, even though SUPPOSEDLY we were interested in Aaron as a FA, I think this was more of a PR move to appease his fans rather than a wholehearted effort by KW to bring him back. Heck, KW's ego wouldn't allow him to admit he needed a CF, as that would solidify the prevailing wisdom of retaining Brian Anderson as a total bust.

 

I could have just as easily left Swisher there as the DH, but he just never was a good fit for this team and it would be too convenient to stick his post-Sox Yankees numbers into the Sox line-up over 2010-11. That Yankees' line-up provides a ton of protection and shelter for him to just do his thing. And, from all reports of his time here, the guy was quite a prick.

 

We definitely wouldn't have a prototypical leadoff hitter like Ozzie has liked with Pierre and Pods. Sweeney, because of his OBP, would be the pick over Chris B. Young.

 

And, now that I started thinking about it, Dye as the DH would have made sense, too.

 

He just wasn't ready to accept that role at the time, and he was stung by the Rios acquisition and his diminished playing time. Then again, with no Rios, it would have been easier to imagine JD sticking around with the organization.

Edited May 5, 2011 by caulfield12

[Andrew]

Actually, we (in the AL Central Div.) have three $100,000,000+ payrolls for the first time, but only two pennants since 1997 (Sox and Tigers back-to-back) to show for it.

 

Personally, I do agree that I'd rather see Ozzie and the coaches gone first. The main reason? 6-24 against the Twins since the second half of 2009 is simply unacceptable. That's the equivalent of the Bears beating the Packers 2 out of every 10 meetings.

 

I'm 50/50 on KW.

 

If they decide to change philosophy, I would prefer not to go with Hahn. I think they need someone more creative, who's acclimated to working with limited budgets. Let's not forget, Rick Hahn has spent most of his time with us cutting his teeth on $90-130 million rosters. That's definitely not going to be the situation for the new GM to work with going forward.

 

Here's where I would raid Friedman's Rays staff, Beinfest/Hill in Florida, some of the Twins' minor league development people.

 

I'm not far off from you on KW either, but I have 0 faith in our ability to scout.

 

Funny you mention both the Rays and Florida as a place to pilfer staff from, but they have invested HEAVILY in scouting to find talent and draft them (and they spend more $ on us too). Playing in the hotbed doesn't hurt either.

 

They are also very good at identifying when they miss (see Hanley Ramirez, Annibal Sanchez, Kazmir (when he was good), etc.).

 

There is nothing remotely close to that in our organization.

 

We're talking...like WHOLESALE change needed here. KW is fine with ML deals. He needs an advisor for the minors, keeping them stocked, making those deals, and for god's sakes...spending some $.

 

Well, my opinion anyway.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Andrew

[caulfield12]

I'm not far off from you on KW either, but I have 0 faith in our ability to scout.

 

Funny you mention both the Rays and Florida as a place to pilfer staff from, but they have invested HEAVILY in scouting to find talent and draft them (and they spend more $ on us too). Playing in the hotbed doesn't hurt either.

 

They are also very good at identifying when they miss (see Hanley Ramirez, Annibal Sanchez, Kazmir (when he was good), etc.).

 

There is nothing remotely close to that in our organization.

 

We're talking...like WHOLESALE change needed here. KW is fine with ML deals. He needs an advisor for the minors, keeping them stocked, making those deals, and for god's sakes...spending some $.

 

Well, my opinion anyway.

 

 

It's the whole approach. Even if Mitchell and Trayce Thompson have all the raw talent in the world, I'm not a firm believer at all in Buddy Bell's ability to develop them.

 

He was a horrible MLB manager. Why would he be so much more well-suited to work with our minor leaguers? I guess having lived in KC at the time of his "reign," I'm not much of a fan. My opinions of Teahen and Bell run in tandem. In fact, it's fairly certain without Bell here we never would have reached out for Teahen and some of the Royals rejects that have worked so well.

[Milkman delivers]

That's why I said give it the season. Changing GMs or managers or coaches really isn't going to make a difference right now. At the end of the year, if the team was crap JR shouldn't decide which of KW or Ozzie to keep, he should get rid of them both, and take all the coaches with them. I would also imagine the KW/Ozzie relationship has a good chance of going sour if the losing continues, because fingers will be pointed, things will be said. I hope this works and still think there's a chance, but if it doesn't, I hope JR decides to try something else. These seasons are starting to seem like re-runs.

 

If the season is obviously over before the actual end of the season, I still want them fired. I know it wouldn't make a difference to the season because it would already be over, but the vindictive side of me wants them thrown out during the year for the added kick in the ass.