K-Dubya vs. Soxtalk

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I don't recall there being too much complaining about the Danks/McCarthy deal. Perhaps you're the one revising history.

 

I literally cried. And if I spend 5-10 minutes, I can find the thread on the forum I used to post at where I went off on Kenny and how terrible the trade was.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Who cares about the Danks/Floyd deals.. You don't get a license to suck at your job for 3-4 years straight because you made good moves 5years ago. This franchise is in serious trouble if they don't at least win the division this year.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I literally cried. And if I spend 5-10 minutes, I can find the thread on the forum I used to post at where I went off on Kenny and how terrible the trade was.

 

 

Found it pretty quickly. From when I was 16....

 

OH MY GOD. NOOOOOOO. McCarthy was my favorite player and I couldnt wait for him to start. I am utterly ****ed off right now. I cant believe it. We now have a terrible rotation, and I really dont give a damn about next season anymore. No joke. I could careless about the team now... I cant believe this... PLEASE GOD. Let someone fail a physical...

 

I really dont give a **** about these new player. I am ****ed as hell right now. Holy **** im mad. This better result in a trade in which we do something HUGE.

 

....I give up....

 

EDIT: we got some scrub pitchers by the way.. no one who will ever be as good as McCarthy.

 

 

Possibly a slight over-reaction. lol. This was before I had any knowledge of the minor leagues and who was who.

[Leonard Zelig]

Who cares about the Danks/Floyd deals.. You don't get a license to suck at your job for 3-4 years straight because you made good moves 5years ago. This franchise is in serious trouble if they don't at least win the division this year.

So he sucks even when his team wins its division?

[Texsox]

BTW the point I was making is that Williams is a mediocre GM at best.

[Soxfest]

BTW the point I was making is that Williams is a mediocre GM at best.

That is all KW is and will ever be at best.

[iamshack]

I think had KW had a manager like Joe Maddon or Mike Scoscia who would have been able to intelligently partner with him to put together a plan for winning club, we would be singing a drastically different tune.

 

[oldsox]

Pro Kenny people quickly bring up the Danks trade. Okay, I'll admit, that trade was good for the Sox. Maybe Kenny just got lucky. The blind squirrel found an acorn. There have been so many bad moves that he has made that are not even discussed any more -- the Everett deals, the Alomar deals, the Swisher deals? Do we remember the infamous Berry/Barry deal with LA? Even though it didn't hurt the Sox, it was a symbol of incompetence. Letting Maggs go with out a draft pick?? Giving up a draft choice for Dunn? All of the lousy picks he made? The state of the farm system? The fact he won't do anything about Pierre in left? There is one word that I will always associate with Kenny: out-negotiated. If he were a politician, he would be unelectable. If he were an executive in a real business, he would be unhireable. I have no idea how he justifies his expensive mistakes to JR. He makes his counterparts look good, and agents must love him. Of course, there will be moves to be made between now and the trading deadline; I hope he does well.

[iamshack]

Pro Kenny people quickly bring up the Danks trade. Okay, I'll admit, that trade was good for the Sox. Maybe Kenny just got lucky. The blind squirrel found an acorn. There have been so many bad moves that he has made that are not even discussed any more -- the Everett deals, the Alomar deals, the Swisher deals? Do we remember the infamous Berry/Barry deal with LA? Even though it didn't hurt the Sox, it was a symbol of incompetence. Letting Maggs go with out a draft pick?? Giving up a draft choice for Dunn? All of the lousy picks he made? The state of the farm system? The fact he won't do anything about Pierre in left? There is one word that I will always associate with Kenny: out-negotiated. If he were a politician, he would be unelectable. If he were an executive in a real business, he would be unhireable. I have no idea how he justifies his expensive mistakes to JR. He makes his counterparts look good, and agents must love him. Of course, there will be moves to be made between now and the trading deadline; I hope he does well.

It's really easy for you to throw around all these negatives about what Kenny does, and I'll admit, there was a learning curve for a while there. But honestly, he's made a lot of very good moves that have kept the White Sox competitive for the entire course of his tenure. Yes, I'll admit, we have come up short on division championships and playoff appearances. Yes, perhaps Kenny's most glaring weakness, at least to me, is building a TEAM, and not just the best collection of players on paper. But this is where Ozzie has to come in and accept some blame. Ozzie is the one in the dugout and the clubhouse every day who sees how these guys feed off one another, who the leaders are, which players' strengths should increase the ability of the team to win and which players' weaknesses hurt our chances. He needs to be able to tell Kenny what type of player he needs to put together a winning ballclub and what type of player is simply redundant and adds nothing.

 

Yes, I think Kenny should accept some of the blame on that front, but I think that is part of Ozzie's job description as well. Together, they just don't seem to make the best duo and maybe they don't see eye-to-eye or communicate particularly well.

 

But as for Kenny's ability to bring in quality players in that should, theoretically, give us the best chance to win this division year in and year out, I have a very difficult time being particularly critical of him.

[Chicago White Sox]

I think had KW had a manager like Joe Maddon or Mike Scoscia who would have been able to intelligently partner with him to put together a plan for winning club, we would be singing a drastically different tune.

I agree with this, but at the same time he supported the decisions to DH Kotsay, start Wise, and have Pierre leadoff despite being terrible. As much as I like KW, I can't give him a free pass for decisions an entire message board can quickly tell are stupid. Something changed with him. Maybe it was his divorce, the Wilder fiasco, or something we don't know about, but he's been making more poor decisions lately than good. I'd like to give him one more chance, but we continue sit here with the same manager trying to play NL style in a bandbox in the AL. His refusal to make any changes is my last straw with him. I think I'm finally ready to try something different.

[iamshack]

I agree with this, but at the same time he supported the decisions to DH Kotsay, start Wise, and have Pierre leadoff despite being terrible. As much as I like KW, I can't give him a free pass for decisions an entire message board can quickly tell are stupid. Something changed with him. Maybe it was his divorce, the Wilder fiasco, or something we don't know about, but he's been making more poor decisions lately than good. I'd like to give him one more chance, but we continue sit here with the same manager trying to play NL style in a bandbox in the AL. His refusal to make any changes is my last straw with him. I think I'm finally ready to try something different.

Juan Pierre did not hurt us last year. His defense was enough to justify his position in the lineup last year, IMO. This year, yes, he is hurting us.

 

I think both Jerry and Kenny would have done things differently last year, but chose to give Ozzie a shot at having a bit more say in the team he wanted to put together. JR said something to the effect of "How can we hold Ozzie accountable if we don't allow him to have the players he wants"? Then he went out and gave him a contract extension this offseason. I put last year more on Jerry and Ozzie, to be honest.

 

That being said, Kenny has made some poor moves, and this is a result of his ultra-aggressive nature.

 

I guess maybe it's just my personality though. I remember the Ron Schueler era, and having players become available, and we were never part of the discussion. Then Kenny came and we are ALWAYS part of the discussion. I guess I just like that excitement and the aggressive nature. I'll go down swinging year after year rather than sit around and wait for the prospects to pan out in some perfect storm ala Bill Stoneman.

 

I know a day is coming soon when Kenny will no longer be the GM of this baseball team. And who knows, maybe we'll be a more successful club when that happens. But I know one thing - it probably won't be nearly as exciting to be a White Sox fan in the offseason and around the trade deadline when that occurs.

[bigruss]

Juan Pierre did not hurt us last year. His defense was enough to justify his position in the lineup last year, IMO. This year, yes, he is hurting us.

 

I think both Jerry and Kenny would have done things differently last year, but chose to give Ozzie a shot at having a bit more say in the team he wanted to put together. JR said something to the effect of "How can we hold Ozzie accountable if we don't allow him to have the players he wants"? Then he went out and gave him a contract extension this offseason. I put last year more on Jerry and Ozzie, to be honest.

 

That being said, Kenny has made some poor moves, and this is a result of his ultra-aggressive nature.

 

I guess maybe it's just my personality though. I remember the Ron Schueler era, and having players become available, and we were never part of the discussion. Then Kenny came and we are ALWAYS part of the discussion. I guess I just like that excitement and the aggressive nature. I'll go down swinging year after year rather than sit around and wait for the prospects to pan out in some perfect storm ala Bill Stoneman.

 

I know a day is coming soon when Kenny will no longer be the GM of this baseball team. And who knows, maybe we'll be a more successful club when that happens. But I know one thing - it probably won't be nearly as exciting to be a White Sox fan in the offseason and around the trade deadline when that occurs.

It's all fine and dandy that you're going down swinging, but you're swinging with a mini-bat with the depth of what you've got to trade with.

[iamshack]

It's all fine and dandy that you're going down swinging, but you're swinging with a mini-bat with the depth of what you've got to trade with.

I always enjoy when you join in this discussion, Russ.

And I really think that is a legitimate argument, except for the fact that we always seem to get a major piece if we want it. Someone always seems to step up unexpectedly and fill the role of sacrificial lamb, whether it be McCarthy, Hudson, De Los Santos, or whomever. This year it looks to be Petricka?

[bigruss]

I always enjoy when you join in this discussion, Russ.

And I really think that is a legitimate argument, except for the fact that we always seem to get a major piece if we want it. Someone always seems to step up unexpectedly and fill the role of sacrificial lamb, whether it be McCarthy, Hudson, De Los Santos, or whomever. This year it looks to be Petricka?

I know Im a stickler when it comes to the farm system

 

We've lost out on a few major pieces, Miggy Cabrera, AGon (couldn't really give up Beckham, didn't have the other pieces), and what we have gotten are guys usually past their prime or with big risks associated with them to help drive the price down.

[iamshack]

I know Im a stickler when it comes to the farm system

 

We've lost out on a few major pieces, Miggy Cabrera, AGon (couldn't really give up Beckham, didn't have the other pieces), and what we have gotten are guys usually past their prime or with big risks associated with them to help drive the price down.

Yeah, we've missed out on a few guys, but given that both of those guys are 1b, and PK continues to look pretty darn good himself, I don't beat myself up too much.

 

I still look at having Danks and Floyd, Alexei, CQ, Santos, Contreras, Jenks, Thornton, now perhaps Humber...all for basically nothing...I feel like he has atoned for some of his bigger mistakes by getting those guys. Not a lot of other GM's have made as much from very little as Kenny has.

[caulfield12]

I would give Williams a B/B-.

 

 

What he's good at: Finding "undervalued" position players 23-32 that are hidden gems or have flaws and either providing them an opportunity to play or fixing them.

 

This list includes Carlos Quentin, Jermaine Dye, Alexei Ramirez, AJ Pierzynski (although I won't agree he's better than when he played for the Twins), Tadahito Iguchi, Miguel Olivo, Scotty Pods and Juan Uribe, to name a few.

 

Finding "undervalued" pitching talent that's major league ready or struggling: Esteban Loaiza, Matt Thornton, Bobby Jenks, Jose Contreras, Danks, Floyd, Humber, Sergio Santos, etc. Noted failures include Javy Vazquez, Mike MacDougal, Jeremy Sisco, David Aardsma and Nick Masset.

 

The four biggest bones I have to pick with KW are:

 

1) Not the three-for-one Todd Ritchie deal, but both Swisher moves.

 

2) The complete failure to identify, develop/incubate younger hitters from the age of 16-23. This list includes Joe Borchard, Brian Anderson, Josh Fields, Jeremy Reed, Aaron Cunningham, Miguel Gonzalez, Michael Morse, Miguel Olivo (both lists), Chris Getz, Jerry Owens, Rob Valido, Andy Gonzalez, Francisco Hernandez,

 

Chris Carter, Beckham, Viciedo, Mitchell, T. Thompson, Danks, Flowers, Morel, B. Allen=jury still out

 

3) Blown draft picks on pitchers: Honel, K. McCulloch, Royce Ring, Lance Broadway, Aaron Poreda, Matt Long (2nd round), Ray Liotta, Jason Stumm, Sean Tracey, Tyler Lumsden, Matt Ginter, etc.

 

4) The complete dearth of ANY prospects developed from the Dominican Republic and Venezuela since Ordonez and C-Lee. This is especially galling because no advantage has been taken (seemingly) of Ozzie's background as what amounts to a national hero in his native country. The fact that over 30% of MLB talent comes from Latin America and we've been left out in the cold is inexcusable and can't all be blamed on Wilder or Jerry Krause. By the way, what has Krause done since he was brought on board as a chief scout down there?

 

On the plus side, having drafted and developed Gio Gonzalez, Brandon McCarthy, Clayton Richard and Daniel Hudson isn't such a bad track record. On the other hand, other than Chris B. Young and Ryan Sweeney, position prospect development has been a barren wasteland.

 

 

[Milkman delivers]

I went back and skimmed through the original McCarthy/Danks trade thread. It didn't seem as bad as people are making it out to be. People were rightfully confused and many said that the team wouldn't do well in 2007 and that Ozzie's personal bias against McCarthy must have played a role in the trade. There were a few people that were overly angry, but I would put them well in the minority.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Milkman delivers

[Texsox]

Currently it looks like 17 people believe they have done as well or better than KW and only 5 believe they have done worse. Even taking in account that the average poster here knows way more than the average baseball fan, that is a pretty dismal showing for KW.

[dyuen]

The four biggest bones I have to pick with KW are:

 

 

3) Blown draft picks on pitchers: Honel, K. McCulloch, Royce Ring, Lance Broadway, Aaron Poreda, Matt Long (2nd round), Ray Liotta, Jason Stumm, Sean Tracey, Tyler Lumsden, Matt Ginter, etc.

 

This is #1 for me. I would also add to your list the heavy reliance on veteran players who are past their prime and KW trying to find the fountain of youth with these guys. I hate when he bring back old guys who are no longer productive.

[southsider2k5]

This is #1 for me. I would also add to your list the heavy reliance on veteran players who are past their prime and KW trying to find the fountain of youth with these guys. I hate when he bring back old guys who are no longer productive.

 

Except it means nothing out of context. I'd like to see a list of failed pitching draftees from other teams to compare it to.

[caulfield12]

Except it means nothing out of context. I'd like to see a list of failed pitching draftees from other teams to compare it to.

 

 

You'd have to index it to draft position/signing bonus, etc.

 

Overall, our draft positions have been lousy because usually we're a .500 or better team.

 

But the Broadway, Honel and Stumm picks (because of his bonus) were disasters. Of course, you could look at the Royals' first round draft picks for a 15 year stretch and find all misses.

 

That said, they've (the Royals, not us) done a much better job the last five years. Yes, understatement of the year, there.

 

Of course, the most grating failure is Borchard, but this whole situation has been covered exhaustively.

 

 

 

When you're NOT drafting well out of the US, and NOT getting ANYTHING out of the DR, Venezuela, Mexico and Central America for a ten + year timeframe, then you're severely handicapping yourself. Basically, we have cut ourselves off from 35% of the talent load in the world.

 

Really, it's a miracle we've been competitive at all. That's a testament to KW and some of the brighter moves he's made, which, along with the high payroll, have covered up largely for the mistakes but always put us on the precipice of disaster (because of contracts like Rios and Peavy).

 

Internationally, it's basically Tadahito, Takatsu, Alexei and Viciedo. That's it. For 10+ years.

Edited May 16, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Internationally, it's basically Tadahito, Takatsu, Alexei and Viciedo. That's it. For 10+ years.

Again, comparison needed. How many teams have gotten 2 starting position players, a 1 year wonder closer, and a top prospect OF/DH bat internationally over the last 8 years, and done so without a Kaz Matsui contract level bust?

 

If I go to the roster of some of the top teams right now, do they have more or less than that?

[caulfield12]

Again, comparison needed. How many teams have gotten 2 starting position players, a 1 year wonder closer, and a top prospect OF/DH bat internationally over the last 8 years, and done so without a Kaz Matsui contract level bust?

 

If I go to the roster of some of the top teams right now, do they have more or less than that?

 

 

Same question, back at you.

 

Can you think of any team that's been to the playoffs in the last decade that have done so without producing any homegrown players from Latin America over a 10 year time period?

 

Either pitchers or hitters.

 

I was thinking the last Dominican we produced...Jesus Pena? Ozuna doesn't exactly count.

 

Clevelan Santeliz to represent Ozzieland?

 

But I'm talking about a kid signed at 16-18 years old.

 

 

[heirdog]

I, too, believed that Massett was just a tick below Jenks...

[nitetrain8601]

I've been in line with him. Not much better, not much worse.