K-Dubya vs. Soxtalk

[Rowand44]

I went back and skimmed through the original McCarthy/Danks trade thread. It didn't seem as bad as people are making it out to be. People were rightfully confused and many said that the team wouldn't do well in 2007 and that Ozzie's personal bias against McCarthy must have played a role in the trade. There were a few people that were overly angry, but I would put them well in the minority.

I don't think I've ever been so angry about a trade as I was that one. Oops...

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'll simplify this: KW was bad at his job from 2001 through 2003. KW was brilliant at his job from 2004-2007. KW has been been at his job from 2008 to the present. So more bad than good. He must go.

[flavum]

Perfect summation. It's been a train wreck the last few years.

[southsider2k5]

Again, comparison needed. How many teams have gotten 2 starting position players, a 1 year wonder closer, and a top prospect OF/DH bat internationally over the last 8 years, and done so without a Kaz Matsui contract level bust?

 

If I go to the roster of some of the top teams right now, do they have more or less than that?

 

Or without throwing out "big" contracts.

[caulfield12]

Or without throwing out "big" contracts.

 

 

Then we have to take Viciedo off the list because that was the biggest contract ever given to a non-major league ready player in MLB history.

 

Ramirez...nobody can take that away from KW, same with Jenks and Santos.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Then we have to take Viciedo off the list because that was the biggest contract ever given to a non-major league ready player in MLB history.

 

Ramirez...nobody can take that away from KW, same with Jenks and Santos.

 

Well that's just not true.

[caulfield12]

Well that's just not true.

 

How many players in Latin America have been signed to a guaranteed MLB contract (I won't even add "signed at age 19 or higher to their first contract"), received $10+ million dollars, and didn't (or hadn't yet) achieved a starting role in the 3rd year of their playing career?

 

In this situation, it's basically like we "drafted" something between an advanced high school player and a seasoned SEC collegiate player and gave him one of the biggest signing bonuses in the history of the draft.

 

It's an unusual contract and certainly "big" by most definitions.

[Balta1701]

How many players in Latin America have been signed to a guaranteed MLB contract (I won't even add "signed at age 19 or higher to their first contract"), received $10+ million dollars, and didn't (or hadn't yet) achieved a starting role in the 3rd year of their playing career?

 

In this situation, it's basically like we "drafted" something between an advanced high school player and a seasoned SEC collegiate player and gave him one of the biggest signing bonuses in the history of the draft.

 

It's an unusual contract and certainly "big" by most definitions.

I've had really bad luck googling stuff like this today.

 

Anyway, Jose Contreras and Aroldis Chapman blew past Viciedo's contract.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

How many players in Latin America have been signed to a guaranteed MLB contract (I won't even add "signed at age 19 or higher to their first contract"), received $10+ million dollars, and didn't (or hadn't yet) achieved a starting role in the 3rd year of their playing career?

 

In this situation, it's basically like we "drafted" something between an advanced high school player and a seasoned SEC collegiate player and gave him one of the biggest signing bonuses in the history of the draft.

 

It's an unusual contract and certainly "big" by most definitions.

 

Well now you're adding qualifiers to this whereas initially there were none. Mark Prior had a $10M+ contract out of the draft for example.

[caulfield12]

I've had really bad luck googling stuff like this today.

 

Anyway, Jose Contreras and Aroldis Chapman blew past Viciedo's contract.

 

 

I'll just put it this way, there's never been a contract of $10 million plus for an unproven 19 year old where there was considerable doubt about what impact he'd have in the majors...Contreras was expected to be a star right away, and Chapman was considered "major league ready" in the minds of many scouts after seeing him in the World Baseball Classic. It was largely based on "projectability," but the raw talent was there.

 

Considering the amount of money given to him is like 3-4 entire June FA drafts for the organization, it's an interesting risk considering we almost never go over slot in the draft itself, yet we "went over slot" in the millions of dollars in an open bidding process with every team in the majors involved.

Edited May 17, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

I'll just put it this way, there's never been a contract of $10 million plus for an unproven 19 year old where there was considerable doubt about what impact he'd have in the majors...Contreras was expected to be a star right away, and Chapman was considered "major league ready" in the minds of many scouts after seeing him in the World Baseball Classic. It was largely based on "projectability," but the raw talent was there.

 

Considering the amount of money given to him is like 3-4 entire June FA drafts for the organization, it's an interesting risk considering we almost never go over slot in the draft itself, yet we "went over slot" in the millions of dollars in an open bidding process with every team in the majors involved.

"Considerable doubt?"

 

Your not exactly making a strong take here. Aroldis Chapman started off with considerable doubt about whether he'd be a starter or stay healthy. Jose Contreras got $30 million from the Yankees based basically on 1 game a few years beforehand, and if there wasn't considerable doubt, there should have been.

 

Can I also throw people signed from Japan into this boat in terms of considerable doubt?

[Steve9347]

When I criticize KW, it's not because I think I am smarter baseball-wise, because obviously I don't believe that. My criticism manifests itself because he is a lousy general manager relative to others in his business.

 

Some facts since he took over:

 

Record: 866-795 (.521%)

Playoff appearances: 2/10 years

 

Salary rankings:

2011: 5/30 (1st in division)

2010: 7/30 (2nd in division, Detroit)

2009: 12/30 (2nd in division, Detroit)

2008: 5/30 (2nd in division, Detroit)

2007: 5/30 (1st in division)

2006: 4/30 (1st in division)

2005: 13/30 (1st in division)

2004: 15/30 (1st in division)

2003: 22/30 (2nd in division, Minnesota)

2002: 18/30 (2nd in division, Cleveland)

2001: 14/30 (2nd in division, Cleveland)

That's about as incriminating as it gets.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Fact of the matter is it's time to f***ing see what we have in Dayan. There's nothing for him to accomplish at AAA. He's never going to have Barry Bonds' plate discipline. And he's certainly not going to morph into Carl Crawford out in LF. He we are nearly 2 and a half years later after signing him and we're still waiting. Let's go!

[southsider2k5]

How many players in Latin America have been signed to a guaranteed MLB contract (I won't even add "signed at age 19 or higher to their first contract"), received $10+ million dollars, and didn't (or hadn't yet) achieved a starting role in the 3rd year of their playing career?

 

In this situation, it's basically like we "drafted" something between an advanced high school player and a seasoned SEC collegiate player and gave him one of the biggest signing bonuses in the history of the draft.

 

It's an unusual contract and certainly "big" by most definitions.

 

Dude there would be more astericks in this than a George Carlin concert transcript.

[caulfield12]

They simply have to find out what Viciedo can do for at least 3 months this season.

 

If Morel can put together a solid rest of the season, they theoretically won't be entirely out of it for 2012 no matter what happens the rest of this year (see 2007/2008, or 2004/2005 offseasons).

 

Of course, that's ASSUMING that Peavy, Humber and Sale are all solid contributors to the rotation next year (along with Gavin) and that we can get decent returns for Buehrle/Jackson.

 

Then, they'll have to decide what to do about Quentin and Danks. If they decide to trade both of them, then they might as well go ahead and try to get the best possible return on Matt Thornton, although is new contract won't make that a slam dunk unless he picks it up in terms of velocity and his offspeed stuff shows some semblance of being respected by hitters.

 

It's pretty obvious that they can't go through yet another year with AJ as their #1 catcher if he continues to be this punchless offensively. They have the option of finding another Olivo/Molina type who's "defense first" or rolling the dice with Tyler Flowers and calling all the pitches from the dugout.

Edited May 17, 2011 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Dude there would be more astericks in this than a George Carlin concert transcript.

 

Fine, name me any player (pitcher or hitter) in MLB history who was signed for $10+ million (at the age of 19 or above) who wasn't a major league regular by his 3rd full season?

I'll just say that when you gamble that much money on a non-collegiate player, it's almost unheard of. Beckett and Porcello are the only similar situations in terms of being Dayan's age at the time of the bonus. And A-Rod.

 

 

 

1.Stephen Strasburg, Nationals (2009, 1st round, 1st pick): Four years, $15.1MM. $7.5MM of that makes up the largest signing bonus in draft history, and his salary is set through the 2012 season.

 

2.Mark Prior, Cubs (2001, 1/2): Five years, $10.5MM. Prior's contract allowed him to void the final two years of the deal and instead file for salary arbitration, which he did in 2006. Instead being paid the $2MM his contract called for that season, Prior earned $3.575MM when the two sides settled before a hearing.

 

3.Mark Teixeira, Rangers (2001, 1/5): Four years, $9.5MM. Teixeira's $4.5MM signing bonus was the largest ever given to a player as part of a big league deal at the time, and it stood as the record until the next player on our list was drafted.

 

4.David Price, Rays (2007, 1/1): Six years, $8.5MM. Price has a clause similar to Prior in his deal, allowing him to void the $1.5MM he's scheduled to make in 2012 and instead file for arbitration. The early guess is that he will indeed go that route.

 

5.Pat Burrell, Phillies (1998, 1/1): Five years, $8MM. Pat the Bat's deal marked the beginning of the big money era for draft picks.

 

6.Dustin Ackley, Mariners (2009, 1/2): Five years, $7.5MM. Ackley can also earn another $2.5MM in salary based on how quickly he reaches the big leagues.

 

7.Rick Porcello, Tigers (2007, 1/27): Four years, $7.285MM. Club options for the 2012 and 2013 seasons could put another $2.88MM in his pocket.

 

8.J.D. Drew, Cardinals (1998, 1/5): Four years, $7MM. Drew famously refused to sign with the Phillies as the second overall pick in the 1997 draft, as he and Boras stuck to their guarantee that he would not sign for less than $10MM.

 

9.Josh Beckett, Marlins (1999, 1/2): Four years, $7MM. Beckett was the first high school player to receive a Major League deal since Alex Rodriguez in 1993, and the first high school pitcher to get one since Van Poppel.

 

10.Eric Munson, Tigers (1999, 1/3): Four years, $6.75MM. The $3.5MM signing bonus was a club record until Porcello showed up.

 

source: MLBtraderumors.com

Edited May 17, 2011 by caulfield12

[SoxAce]

He's never going to have Barry Bonds' plate discipline.

 

Don't tell Balta that..

[WHITESOXRANDY]

I will say this, Kenny Williams did a great job (much better than me) up until 2009. He was basically a bargain hunter and he was good at it.

 

Then, he started going after big names and throwing around tons of money and lots of prospects and always against my judgement. Unfortunately, he's been completely wrong about PEAVY, PIERRE, TEAHEN, DUNN and JACKSON.

 

Those were all bad moves that I was against and they all collectively have decimated this organization. It's time for a change.

[caulfield12]

I will say this, Kenny Williams did a great job (much better than me) up until 2009. He was basically a bargain hunter and he was good at it.

 

Then, he started going after big names and throwing around tons of money and lots of prospects and always against my judgement. Unfortunately, he's been completely wrong about PEAVY, PIERRE, TEAHEN, DUNN and JACKSON.

 

Those were all bad moves that I was against and they all collectively have decimated this organization. It's time for a change.

 

 

And Buddy Bell, who was the driving force behind the Teahen acquisition and has completely revitalized our minor league system with his mere presence, rapidly instituting a new "Sox Way" that's perpetuated itself throughout the system and resulted in incredibly rapid prospect development.