Molto Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 http://www.soxnet.net/michel/article-12.7.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac9001 Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 I still think its a good deal, we would have lost Keith after this season, but we still have Koch for 3 more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 You're article makes me sick to read. Get off KW's back and quit ripping everything he does. The easiest thing to do is be a critic. If you were in his situation, I doubt you'd do much better. Besides, a lot of Sox fans like the trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Matt I thought this was a good article. You brought up some good points. Of course, I liked the deal, but I do like your point about not having a true catcher that can handle the pitchers and it will bite the Sox in the butt, if they don't pick up a veteran catcher. Still, I fail to recognize what some see in Mark Johnson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM23 Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Originally posted by abozichiuYou're article makes me sick to read. Get off KW's back and quit ripping everything he does. The easiest thing to do is be a critic. If you were in his situation, I doubt you'd do much better. Besides, a lot of Sox fans like the trade. He hasn't earned my trust with big deals that involve big leaguers, yet. And if you notice, I also say that we may win based on the Foulke-for-Koch aspect of the trade, and I really wouldn't be surprised if the Sox win at the minor league level thanks to this trade, as KW has shown incredible skill with the wheelings and dealings of minor leaguers, my beef is with A) the loss of Johnson and now the rush of Olivio to the bigs, which will only hurt us in the long run, and B) the perception of the doghouse that I fear exsists in the organization. And so what if a lot of fans like the trade? That forbids me from saying I dislike it? Jason wrote a great piece on why the deal was a good one, so its not like you don't get both sides of the spectrum at the site. I'm just offering my opinions on why I am suspcisious of this trade. If Koch remains a dominant closer, Foulke falls apart (again), Valentine turns out to be a dud, Johnson continues to suck, Olivio becomes a catching stud, and the PsTBNL become solid prospects, I'll gladly take back what I've written. Until then, I'm going to be suspicious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM23 Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Originally posted by Chisoxfn Still, I fail to recognize what some see in Mark Johnson. I see nothing in Mark Johnson, other than now because of his absence, Miguel Olivio is a lock to be rushed to the big league level, and you cannot rush catchers. You can afford to rush outfielders and infielders, but rushing catchers drastically stunts their growth. Preferably, I'd like to have seen the Sox pick up a "rent-a-catcher" and platoon him with Johnson for '03 and let Olivio have one more season in the minors. IIRC, A.J. Pierzynski was held back in the minors for an extra year, and he's become a stud catcher (I'd say right now, the #2 or #3 catcher in the game right now). That, and any move that puts Josh Paul a little closer to the big leagues terrifies me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiff Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 shouldn't you be pretending to be drunk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Originally posted by Spiffshouldn't you be pretending to be drunk He got some coffee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Originally posted by abozichiuYou're article makes me sick to read. Get off KW's back and quit ripping everything he does. The easiest thing to do is be a critic. If you were in his situation, I doubt you'd do much better. Besides, a lot of Sox fans like the trade. a lot of sox fans liked the ritchie trade too...whether you agree with MM's article or not...it was well thought out and raised very good points...too bad he is a liberal:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Why is it not mentioned that Foulke had a low era in non-pressure situations? Why is it not mentioned he was facing the AL Central, while Koch was in a pennant race in the West? Oakland assistant general manager, Paul DePodesta said of Joe, "our scouts have seen nothing to suggest that his success won't continue. His fastball's got good life to it, low to mid-90s, and he's got a slider. His fastball gets a fair amount of swings and misses, and a lot of mis-hits." If they loved Valentine so damn much why didn't they grab when he didn't make the Tigers roster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM23 Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Originally posted by Mr. ShowtimeWhy is it not mentioned that Foulke had a low era in non-pressure situations? Why is it not mentioned he was facing the AL Central, while Koch was in a pennant race in the West? Oakland assistant general manager, Paul DePodesta said of Joe, "our scouts have seen nothing to suggest that his success won't continue. His fastball's got good life to it, low to mid-90s, and he's got a slider. His fastball gets a fair amount of swings and misses, and a lot of mis-hits." If they loved Valentine so damn much why didn't they grab when he didn't make the Tigers roster? About Valentine, you'll have to ask the A's yourself... Sorry. And as for Koch, notice how I didn't mention his ,meltdown in Game 5 of the ALDS that all but secured the Twins a trip to the ALCS. But again, if you'll read, I never said I don't like the trade because we lost Foulke and gained Koch. That's not my real beef. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted December 7, 2002 Share Posted December 7, 2002 Originally posted by doubleM23 Originally posted by abozichiuYou're article makes me sick to read. Get off KW's back and quit ripping everything he does. The easiest thing to do is be a critic. If you were in his situation, I doubt you'd do much better. Besides, a lot of Sox fans like the trade. He hasn't earned my trust with big deals that involve big leaguers, yet. And if you notice, I also say that we may win based on the Foulke-for-Koch aspect of the trade, and I really wouldn't be surprised if the Sox win at the minor league level thanks to this trade, as KW has shown incredible skill with the wheelings and dealings of minor leaguers, my beef is with A) the loss of Johnson and now the rush of Olivio to the bigs, which will only hurt us in the long run, and B) the perception of the doghouse that I fear exsists in the organization. And so what if a lot of fans like the trade? That forbids me from saying I dislike it? Jason wrote a great piece on why the deal was a good one, so its not like you don't get both sides of the spectrum at the site. I'm just offering my opinions on why I am suspcisious of this trade. If Koch remains a dominant closer, Foulke falls apart (again), Valentine turns out to be a dud, Johnson continues to suck, Olivio becomes a catching stud, and the PsTBNL become solid prospects, I'll gladly take back what I've written. Until then, I'm going to be suspicious. You've written a very good article, better than some of the superficial pap that some "real" sportswriters dish out. As previously stated, I am uneasy about this trade although Koch may be ready to kick it up a notch and be the "lights out" closer we all want him to be. I agree with you on the "doghouse" aspect of trading Foulke. That kind of crap has got to stop, but I'm afraid it would require a personality transplant on the part of KW. Again, good work, you analyzed it the way you saw it and did it well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molto Posted December 8, 2002 Author Share Posted December 8, 2002 although I like this trade more than I hate it, I do somewhat agree with MM story. his points are well taken and I agree there are more important points on the team to fill. the one problem I had in the article was the whole Mark Johnson thing. NOT because I don't like Johnson, I think he can be a strong backup, BUT I don't agree that Olivo will need to spend extra time down in the minors. catcher is the one position I believe requires more learning at the major league level. his defense is already fine, and game calling and all that I believe is gained through major league experience. I don't think another year at the minor league level will help his game calling anymore. offensively it could help, but I think at this point, we can't be waiting on him. he's a talented ball player who should be up here learning. offensively I don't think he'll be great, because catchers have more of responsibility on defense in the early years, but he can't be any worse than Johnson or Paul. I actually wouldn't mind getting a veteran catcher though. to battle for the backup spot with Paul. they just have to make sure this catcher doesn't take time away from Olivo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BridgeportHeather Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 I luv it when you analyze, doublem! A well-written article indeed. You know your baseball s***! Maybe you should think of writing for your college newspaper or something! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Originally posted by doubleM23About Valentine, you'll have to ask the A's yourself... Sorry. And as for Koch, notice how I didn't mention his ,meltdown in Game 5 of the ALDS that all but secured the Twins a trip to the ALCS. But again, if you'll read, I never said I don't like the trade because we lost Foulke and gained Koch. That's not my real beef. I did read it. I just don't believe Valentine is as good as you think he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Originally posted by Mr. Showtime Originally posted by doubleM23About Valentine, you'll have to ask the A's yourself... Sorry. And as for Koch, notice how I didn't mention his ,meltdown in Game 5 of the ALDS that all but secured the Twins a trip to the ALCS. But again, if you'll read, I never said I don't like the trade because we lost Foulke and gained Koch. That's not my real beef. I did read it. I just don't believe Valentine is as good as you think he is. if the A's wanted valentine wouldnt he have had to make their roster and stay on it all year or risk losing him?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Originally posted by baggio202if the A's wanted valentine wouldnt he have had to make their roster and stay on it all year or risk losing him?? I know he would've had to be on it, I don't know for how long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Originally posted by baggio202 Originally posted by abozichiuYou're article makes me sick to read. Get off KW's back and quit ripping everything he does. The easiest thing to do is be a critic. If you were in his situation, I doubt you'd do much better. Besides, a lot of Sox fans like the trade. a lot of sox fans liked the ritchie trade too...whether you agree with MM's article or not...it was well thought out and raised very good points...too bad he is a liberal:D True dat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Originally posted by Mr. Showtime Originally posted by baggio202if the A's wanted valentine wouldnt he have had to make their roster and stay on it all year or risk losing him?? I know he would've had to be on it, I don't know for how long. Well, if he was drafted in the Rule 5, then he'd of had to be on it or the disabled list the entire season. Still, they can have him in the minors now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Originally posted by ChisoxfnStill, they can have him in the minors now. OH!!! With the way some people talk, Valentine already had 50 saves for the A's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molto Posted December 8, 2002 Author Share Posted December 8, 2002 you mean he didn't? I could've swore he was just entered on the hall of fame ballot yesterday with Guerrier and Fogg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPinStripes Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Foulke would have been interesting in teh ALDS since he loved to blow games vs. big teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Originally posted by Moltoyou mean he didn't? I could've swore he was just entered on the hall of fame ballot yesterday with Guerrier and Fogg. Thank you. I'm going to have to right an article on this. Doub can go his way, and I'll go mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Originally posted by RedPinStripesFoulke would have been interesting in teh ALDS since he loved to blow games vs. big teams. Foulke had one bad game in the 2000 ALDS. I'm not calling him a choke because of that. Koch didn't have a great ALDS either, but I just think more often than not, Koch will get the job done, while Foulke will not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted December 8, 2002 Share Posted December 8, 2002 Originally posted by Mr. Showtime Originally posted by RedPinStripesFoulke would have been interesting in teh ALDS since he loved to blow games vs. big teams. Foulke had one bad game in the 2000 ALDS. I'm not calling him a choke because of that. Koch didn't have a great ALDS either, but I just think more often than not, Koch will get the job done, while Foulke will not. their save pct over the last 4 years are almost idnentical...foulke 86% , kock 85% , and both had probl;ems in their last post season...i think that help proves MM's point that koch for foulke was a wash at best for us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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