The Ghost of Jim Thome is Killing Us

[Milkman delivers]

Do you have a counter for all of these things? Because it's obvious you forgot to do some fact checking.

 

Thome hit as many grounders as he hit fly balls in his career and the trend was generally the same his time here in Chicago. You made it sound like grounds into more double plays than Konerko, but he had seasons of 4, 10, 18, and 8 GIDPs from 2006 to 2009. Konerko during that time? 25, 21, 17, and 15.

 

Singles accounted for 52% of Thome's hits while he was here in Chicago. So basically, he hit more singles than home runs and doubles combined.

 

Thome didn't pull the ball all the time. In fact, he had more hits to center and left field (291) than he had to right field (183) during his stint with the Sox.

 

Thome's numbers with RISP:

2006: .339

2007: .313

2008: .306

2009: .253

 

He's not the reason the Sox pitchers faltered in 06 during the second half of the season. He's not the reason why the bullpen blew up in 07. He was part of the reason why the White Sox won the 2008 division title. He was not the reason the White Sox choked in 09. You can think whatever you like, but there's nothing wrong with having a hitter who can only hit for power and draw walks. Jim Thome is a Hall of Famer who produced very well for the Sox, you can't blame him for his teammates' failures.

 

Ha, that argument just got pissed on.

[Jerksticks]

Demolished my eye. I think Thome epitomizes the all-or-nothing approach. That'll just have to remain my opinion. I hated every one of his at bats. Y'all loved him, good for you. In my eyes he fooled you. To each his own. Edit: I'm just not amazed with 120 hits per season. I don't care if he hit some to left or center. it's still a pathetic amount of hits from your hitting position, but whatever.

 

And Sweet Fancy Moses with the "you'd rather have less offense" comment. Where do you get your material? Do you scrape it off the walls of yer septic tank with yer fingers? I'm clearly talking about guys who work counts, but that's cool, go ahead and continue to think there is only one type of good offensive player. Go ahead, you'll fit right in here.

 

Meanwhile the Sox are under .500 with your sluggers, and all I want is for our players to stop swinging hard as f*** at 3 outa the first 4 pitches every time. Paulie gets it, Morel does to an extent, Carlos has flashes of it, Beckham used to and Pierre is just too weak for it to matter.

 

Why do we put so much pressure on our pitchers to be perfect, and simultaneously let other pitchers do cartwheels through our lineup...well except once, or maybe twice a week? This isn't new for 2011.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Jerksticks

[bigruss]

Demolished my eye. I think Thome epitomizes the all-or-nothing approach. That'll just have to remain my opinion. I hated every one of his at bats. Y'all loved him, good for you. In my eyes he fooled you. To each his own.

 

And Sweet Fancy Moses with the "you'd rather have less offense" comment. Where do you get your material? Do you scrape it off the walls of yer septic tank with yer fingers? I'm clearly talking about guys who work counts, but that's cool, go ahead and continue to think there is only one type of good offensive player. Go ahead, you'll fit right in here.

 

Meanwhile the Sox are under .500 with your sluggers, and all I want is for our players to stop swinging hard as f*** at 3 outa the first 4 pitches every time. Paulie gets it, Morel does to an extent, Carlos has flashes of it, Beckham used to and Pierre is just too weak for it to matter.

 

Why do we put so much pressure on our pitchers to be perfect, and simultaneously let other pitchers do cartwheels through our lineup...well except once, or maybe twice a week? This isn't new for 2011.

Every team will have sluggers, the biggest problem with the Sox offense is that they rely on guys like Pierre, AJ, Lillibridge, Teahen, etc for significant ABs, and we have some vastly underperforming players that really expose these weaknesses.

 

And look at the lineup, Dunn, Konerko, and Quentin are sluggers, that's it. 3 batters, two of them have been your most productive, the other one is slumping big time. So how exactly are these guys hurting the team compared to guys like JP who has been dreadful?

 

And agreed, it's not new in 2011, we've had some crap ballplayers, many of them slap guys. We've had decent sluggers on the team for years, it's the supporting cast taht we can't seem to figure out.

[Jerksticks]

Every team will have sluggers, the biggest problem with the Sox offense is that they rely on guys like Pierre, AJ, Lillibridge, Teahen, etc for significant ABs, and we have some vastly underperforming players that really expose these weaknesses.

 

And look at the lineup, Dunn, Konerko, and Quentin are sluggers, that's it. 3 batters, two of them have been your most productive, the other one is slumping big time. So how exactly are these guys hurting the team compared to guys like JP who has been dreadful?

 

And agreed, it's not new in 2011, we've had some crap ballplayers, many of them slap guys. We've had decent sluggers on the team for years, it's the supporting cast taht we can't seem to figure out.

 

I'm not down on sluggers. I'm down on everyone trying to be sluggers. Swinging hard as f*** at every pitch is what bad sluggers do, and I see a whole bunch of that up n down the lineup. I don't think the supporting cast is full of bad players, but moreso bad approaches. It's Thome's ghost, there's really no other explanation.

[bigruss]

Demolished my eye. I think Thome epitomizes the all-or-nothing approach. That'll just have to remain my opinion. I hated every one of his at bats. Y'all loved him, good for you. In my eyes he fooled you. To each his own. Edit: I'm just not amazed with 120 hits per season. I don't care if he hit some to left or center. it's still a pathetic amount of hits from your hitting position, but whatever.

 

Meanwhile the Sox are under .500 with your sluggers, and all I want is for our players to stop swinging hard as f*** at 3 outa the first 4 pitches every time. Paulie gets it, Morel does to an extent, Carlos has flashes of it, Beckham used to and Pierre is just too weak for it to matter.

 

 

I'm not down on sluggers. I'm down on everyone trying to be sluggers. Swinging hard as f*** at every pitch is what bad sluggers do, and I see a whole bunch of that up n down the lineup. I don't think the supporting cast is full of bad players, but moreso bad approaches. It's Thome's ghost, there's really no other explanation.

 

A) You did indeed say you were down on sluggers, and if your down on Thome's style, then yes you are down on sluggers.

 

You may have to trade some K's for HRs and walks, nothing wrong with that. Not everyone is going to hit .300, just try and find a team that is built with career .300 hitters up and down the line up, you just won't.

 

B) Thome's ghost!? I still can't believe someone with half a brain is using that as an excuse, fact is the team has some garbage hitters and some guys playing like garbage, so when you put both together only 1/3 of your lineup is really being productive. You just won't win games like that, no matter what team.

[Jerksticks]

A) You did indeed say you were down on sluggers, and if your down on Thome's style, then yes you are down on sluggers.

 

You may have to trade some K's for HRs and walks, nothing wrong with that. Not everyone is going to hit .300, just try and find a team that is built with career .300 hitters up and down the line up, you just won't.

 

B) Thome's ghost!? I still can't believe someone with half a brain is using that as an excuse, fact is the team has some garbage hitters and some guys playing like garbage, so when you put both together only 1/3 of your lineup is really being productive. You just won't win games like that, no matter what team.

 

To A: Sluggers should have been in quotes. We really have just one guy in Dunn who fits the Thome mold. And yes, I'll always be down on that type of player but I understand the trade-off you're mentioning. It's the other 6 or so guys taking slugger-approaches at the plate that bothers me.

 

To B: The Thome's Ghost comment is a facetious explanation of the same problem we've had for years and years. Only 1/3 of our lineup is ever productive, it sucks, and I'm sick of it. Maybe my wagons are finally circling in the "Fire Greg Walker" camp. I feel like Paulie is the only guy not listening to him.

[soxfan-kwman]

Jim Thome clogs up the basepaths.

 

Having the base paths clogged up would be a good problem to have at this point.

 

[chw42]

Demolished my eye. I think Thome epitomizes the all-or-nothing approach. That'll just have to remain my opinion. I hated every one of his at bats. Y'all loved him, good for you. In my eyes he fooled you. To each his own. Edit: I'm just not amazed with 120 hits per season. I don't care if he hit some to left or center. it's still a pathetic amount of hits from your hitting position, but whatever.

 

And Sweet Fancy Moses with the "you'd rather have less offense" comment. Where do you get your material? Do you scrape it off the walls of yer septic tank with yer fingers? I'm clearly talking about guys who work counts, but that's cool, go ahead and continue to think there is only one type of good offensive player. Go ahead, you'll fit right in here.

 

Meanwhile the Sox are under .500 with your sluggers, and all I want is for our players to stop swinging hard as f*** at 3 outa the first 4 pitches every time. Paulie gets it, Morel does to an extent, Carlos has flashes of it, Beckham used to and Pierre is just too weak for it to matter.

 

Why do we put so much pressure on our pitchers to be perfect, and simultaneously let other pitchers do cartwheels through our lineup...well except once, or maybe twice a week? This isn't new for 2011.

 

Jim Thome didn't work counts? My god, you're out of your mind. Go to Baseball-Reference and do some damn research, you're wasting everyone's time.

 

I don't think everyone else was delusional of Thome when everyone in this thread except one thinks you're grasping at straws.

 

Your mindset is extremely narrow: you go back on the handful of moments where Thome and hitters like him failed in big situations and continue to replay it over and over again until you make yourself believe that he was a horrible hitter. You refuse to believe anything else even though the guy is on the verge of 600 home runs, has a career .400 OBP, and will eventually get voted into the Hall of Fame.

 

But oh, all of those stats were the result of stat padding, so forget it, he sucks. Until you prove to me and everyone else that Thome's contributions were nothing but stat-padding, you're just a crazy guy yapping nonsense.

 

[chw42]

To A: Sluggers should have been in quotes. We really have just one guy in Dunn who fits the Thome mold. And yes, I'll always be down on that type of player but I understand the trade-off you're mentioning. It's the other 6 or so guys taking slugger-approaches at the plate that bothers me.

 

To B: The Thome's Ghost comment is a facetious explanation of the same problem we've had for years and years. Only 1/3 of our lineup is ever productive, it sucks, and I'm sick of it. Maybe my wagons are finally circling in the "Fire Greg Walker" camp. I feel like Paulie is the only guy not listening to him.

 

There's been some stuff from one of the beat writers that part of the reason Konerko came back was Walker. Konerko is a guy who tweaks so much in his swing so often, he really does need somebody to talk to about his mechanics. I wouldn't be surprised if Walker's one of this best friends.

[ILMOU]

Jim Thome didn't work counts? My god, you're out of your mind. Go to Baseball-Reference and do some damn research, you're wasting everyone's time.

 

This.

[bigruss]

To A: Sluggers should have been in quotes. We really have just one guy in Dunn who fits the Thome mold. And yes, I'll always be down on that type of player but I understand the trade-off you're mentioning. It's the other 6 or so guys taking slugger-approaches at the plate that bothers me.

 

To B: The Thome's Ghost comment is a facetious explanation of the same problem we've had for years and years. Only 1/3 of our lineup is ever productive, it sucks, and I'm sick of it. Maybe my wagons are finally circling in the "Fire Greg Walker" camp. I feel like Paulie is the only guy not listening to him.

Alright, so let's look at the players that possibly are taking on the "Thome" approach:

 

Rios

Beckham

Quentin

Ramirez

Morel/Teahen

AJ

 

Rios has flat out been terrible since the first half of last season, they tinkered with his mechanics and it helped until pitchers figured him out again. Beckham is so screwed up mentally and physically that one can't blame one single thing as his wrongdoing. Quentin has been inconsistent but still one of our best performers, that's just his style of play. Ramirez is another guy who has been solid to good this season. Morel hasn't had enough ABs to really know, Teahen basically the same. AJ could be the biggest victim of an all or nothing approach (which can be debated on what that really means) but he's been showing his age more than anything.

 

So your trying to blame this one approach when really it most likely has nothing to do with the players' current faults.

[StrangeSox]

Maybe the "Ghost of Jim Thome" really is the "lack of a good DH"?

[elrockinMT]

The ghost of Jim Thome? That's a new one. lol. All Jim Thome did was sport a wOBA of .393 and provide 11 WAR in his time in Chicago. Which is pretty good considering he obviously didn't play the field. This offense doesn't suck because a HOF was great at what he was supposed to do. Probably cost us a playoff appearance last year in not having him.

 

 

I liked Jim Thome so there

[hogan873]

I just don't understand this thread. Well, I understand the frustration that we are all feeling about this team and their inability to hit when it's necessary. But to explain the poor play by insinuating a haunting? And a haunting of a guy who played pretty well for this team? Okay, okay, yes he trailed off towards the end, but overall his performance was more than acceptable. He was a DH and a power hitter. And he certainly did work counts, just look at the walks.

 

Dunn is killing this team right now, but he's not alone. It would avtually be nice for Dunn to be possessed by the ghost of Thome right now. At least he'd have a batting average over .200.