Why not? The official "Alex Rios Sucks" Thread

[Chicago White Sox]

If they were shopping Allen, it was probably because the Sox figured out he wasn't that good, which is being vindicated by the fact he can't even make the AZ Dbacks right now.

 

All though I am curious to hear what Allen deals we turned down instead of Pena.

How do you expect to hear that?

[Chicago White Sox]

If they were shopping Allen, it was probably because the Sox figured out he wasn't that good, which is being vindicated by the fact he can't even make the AZ Dbacks right now.

 

All though I am curious to hear what Allen deals we turned down instead of Pena.

How do you expect to hear that?

[flavum]

Not sure if anyone brought it up, but remember last year Rios got booed mercilessly in Toronto, and he had a good series.

 

Hopefully that will happen again.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

How do you expect to hear that?

 

I'm still trying to see how you think Allen had all of this value, when there is nothing indicating otherwise.

[Chicago White Sox]

I'm still trying to see how you think Allen had all of this value, when there is nothing indicating otherwise.

I never said he had all this value. I just said he had more value than most of our minor leaguers at the time. Do you not agree? Like I said, I have no idea what his worth was to other GMs, but I do know what he was worth to us, since he was top five or six prospect in a system that was very top heavy. He was one of our better trade chips and we used that to get an underperforming relief pitcher. I didn't feel that was the best way to use the asset. I would have held on to him until I had a larger, more important need and hoped to use him as a second or third piece.

 

My arguement is simply over the allocation of resources. People get pissed about Teahen's extension because they feel the money could have been used in better way and agree with them. Here, I think Allen could have been used to fill a better need. I honestly believe that Pena was one of KW's guys and he overpaid a little to get him.

[southsider2k5]

I never said he had all this value. I just said he had more value than most of our minor leaguers at the time. Do you not agree? Like I said, I have no idea what his worth was to other GMs, but I do know what he was worth to us, since he was top five or six prospect in a system that was very top heavy. He was one of our better trade chips and we used that to get an underperforming relief pitcher. I didn't feel that was the best way to use the asset. I would have held on to him until I had a larger, more important need and hoped to use him as a second or third piece.

 

My arguement is simply over the allocation of resources. People get pissed about Teahen's extension because they feel the money could have been used in better way and agree with them. Here, I think Allen could have been used to fill a better need. I honestly believe that Pena was one of KW's guys and he overpaid a little to get him.

 

You are setting a value for him, while claiming you didn't know what his value was. If the guy is a 4A player at best, how is he worth more than a reliever? That very well could have been the best value for Allen as an asset. Unless you know somewhere that the Sox were offered a better player for him, you can't really assume he was worth more than what we got for him, especially when has not been able to stick at the major league level and prove that wrong.

[GREEDY]

My take on the Brandon Allen trade:

 

KW had/has a relationship with Byrnes/Dbacks.

 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

You are setting a value for him, while claiming you didn't know what his value was. If the guy is a 4A player at best, how is he worth more than a reliever? That very well could have been the best value for Allen as an asset. Unless you know somewhere that the Sox were offered a better player for him, you can't really assume he was worth more than what we got for him, especially when has not been able to stick at the major league level and prove that wrong.

You are assuming we shopped him and took the best offer. Do you really think KW went around to every team and said what will you give me for Brandon Allen? I think it's much more likely that KW wanted Pena and the asking price was Allen. Why is that so hard to believe?

 

Also, I find it humerous you are using his current situation to dictate his value back then. How many prospects live up to their potential? Not many, but that's why they are prospects. You are gambling on their future. Therefore, what Allen has done lately doesn't change what scouts were projecting for him at the time of the trade. That's what his value was based upon. Are you telling me scouts thought he'd be 4A back then? Otherwise, him being a 4A player now doesn't change a thing.

[StrangeSox]

Who cares about Allen? Rios is expensive and sucks. That's what's wrong with it.

[chisoxt]

Tying up $17 million a year on an injury prone player (especially when he was currently injured) was not a smart move. For him to earn that money he would have to be a Cy Young candidate each year, and that risk is just too high. The players we gave up were decent, probably could have gotten a different starter for that haul, but it was the opportunity cost of tying up that payroll in an injured player that has hurt the Sox.

 

Pena just sucks, don't care too much for Allen even though it would be nice to have another option for LF/RF/1B, but he wasn't a big loss. It's just that Pena himself sucks.

 

Rios is not a legit CF, he has been awful for us 66% of his time here, and I mean AWFUL. His defense has been good, but it pretty much ends there, and for $12 million a year, he better give more than that.

Would it not have made more sense to tie up this wasted money in player development? I have never seen this organization, supposedly one with limited financial resourses piss away sqaunder so much money and get so little back in return. Their player development is so awful, they have to overpay enormously just to get back replacement level talent.

 

What's interesting, is that before the 2009 season began, Sox management explained their lack of off season moves on the fact that the economy was awful and that revenue streams would be drying up. Then, inexplicably, they go out during the season and make the peavy and Rios moves. So what happened, from an economical standpoint to change their minds?

[Jordan4life_2007]

You are assuming we shopped him and took the best offer. Do you really think KW went around to every team and said what will you give me for Brandon Allen? I think it's much more likely that KW wanted Pena and the asking price was Allen. Why is that so hard to believe?

 

Also, I find it humerous you are using his current situation to dictate his value back then. How many prospects live up to their potential? Not many, but that's why they are prospects. You are gambling on their future. Therefore, what Allen has done lately doesn't change what scouts were projecting for him at the time of the trade. That's what his value was based upon. Are you telling me scouts thought he'd be 4A back then? Otherwise, him being a 4A player now doesn't change a thing.

 

Wow. This post was outstanding. I mean I'm being serious.

[southsider2k5]

You are assuming we shopped him and took the best offer. Do you really think KW went around to every team and said what will you give me for Brandon Allen? I think it's much more likely that KW wanted Pena and the asking price was Allen. Why is that so hard to believe?

 

Also, I find it humerous you are using his current situation to dictate his value back then. How many prospects live up to their potential? Not many, but that's why they are prospects. You are gambling on their future. Therefore, what Allen has done lately doesn't change what scouts were projecting for him at the time of the trade. That's what his value was based upon. Are you telling me scouts thought he'd be 4A back then? Otherwise, him being a 4A player now doesn't change a thing.

 

I have no problem thinking that Kenny looked around to see what was out there and what it would cost him. It makes a lot more sense than just assuming he took the very first offer he got for a trade.

 

Actually I am telling you exactly that. There was a school of thought in the scouts that Allen had too many holes in his bat ala Borchard and Fields. It is seemingly turning out to be true, as he hasn't even been able to stick in a place that has a bad 1B situation. Plus you unknowingly justifying this deal when you talk about how prospects usually turnout. If there is a big risk bust, you can't hold their value at what their potential is, because of the very real chance of a bust. Especially in a hitter of the Allen-ilk, the bust risk is higher than normal. You can't fairly make the argument that he has a big bust risk, and he has a big trade value. One effects the other very directly.

[Milkman delivers]

Would it not have made more sense to tie up this wasted money in player development? I have never seen this organization, supposedly one with limited financial resourses piss away sqaunder so much money and get so little back in return. Their player development is so awful, they have to overpay enormously just to get back replacement level talent.

 

What's interesting, is that before the 2009 season began, Sox management explained their lack of off season moves on the fact that the economy was awful and that revenue streams would be drying up. Then, inexplicably, they go out during the season and make the peavy and Rios moves. So what happened, from an economical standpoint to change their minds?

 

Sad but true. We have to pay Rios a ton of money just to field well, as we can't produce even a non-horrible CF.

[bigruss]

I have no problem thinking that Kenny looked around to see what was out there and what it would cost him. It makes a lot more sense than just assuming he took the very first offer he got for a trade.

 

Actually I am telling you exactly that. There was a school of thought in the scouts that Allen had too many holes in his bat ala Borchard and Fields. It is seemingly turning out to be true, as he hasn't even been able to stick in a place that has a bad 1B situation. Plus you unknowingly justifying this deal when you talk about how prospects usually turnout. If there is a big risk bust, you can't hold their value at what their potential is, because of the very real chance of a bust. Especially in a hitter of the Allen-ilk, the bust risk is higher than normal. You can't fairly make the argument that he has a big bust risk, and he has a big trade value. One effects the other very directly.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if a reliever was all that was offered for Pena, but Kenny missed out on Pena, who just flat out sucks.

[bigruss]

Sad but true. We have to pay Rios a ton of money just to field well, as we can't produce even a non-horrible CF.

Danks 2 would probably be worse at the plate (which is pathetic for how Rios is hitting right now), but he would deliver the same or better defense and for $11.5 mill less at least, just sayin'.

[southsider2k5]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if a reliever was all that was offered for Pena, but Kenny missed out on Pena, who just flat out sucks.

 

To me they obviously saw something in Pena they thought they could fix. This was still when we were training with Arizona, so it was almost like getting free scouting trips into their camp every year. I have no doubt that Cooper saw something he thought he could do there.

[Milkman delivers]

Danks 2 would probably be worse at the plate (which is pathetic for how Rios is hitting right now), but he would deliver the same or better defense and for $11.5 mill less at least, just sayin'.

 

I honestly don't believe Jordan Danks will ever cut it on this team. He'll get his shot, but I'm sure it won't last. I'm pretty confident that he was only drafted and continues to get the push he's receiving because of his brother. Once John is gone and they are forced to accept the fact that Jordan is no longer of any use at all, he'll be gone.

[bigruss]

I honestly don't believe Jordan Danks will ever cut it on this team. He'll get his shot, but I'm sure it won't last. I'm pretty confident that he was only drafted and continues to get the push he's receiving because of his brother. Once John is gone and they are forced to accept the fact that Jordan is no longer of any use at all, he'll be gone.

The lack of development for Jordan is extremely disappointing, Buddy Bell was quoted saying he received too much coaching. Well s***, this organization is clueless when it comes to player development, shouldn't we be making changes to prevent these issues in the future!

[Jordan4life_2007]

I honestly don't believe Jordan Danks will ever cut it on this team. He'll get his shot, but I'm sure it won't last. I'm pretty confident that he was only drafted and continues to get the push he's receiving because of his brother. Once John is gone and they are forced to accept the fact that Jordan is no longer of any use at all, he'll be gone.

 

They need to trade him last week if possible and get something of consequence. The power numbers have been encouraging so far. I think he's slugging over .500. Hopefully some GM looks at that and ignores the disgusting K-rate and offers something up.

[southsider2k5]

I honestly don't believe Jordan Danks will ever cut it on this team. He'll get his shot, but I'm sure it won't last. I'm pretty confident that he was only drafted and continues to get the push he's receiving because of his brother. Once John is gone and they are forced to accept the fact that Jordan is no longer of any use at all, he'll be gone.

 

Don't let his lack of development fool you into revisionist history. Danks was going to be a high draft pick if he didn't make noise about a big bonus and/or going back to school. He was top 5 rounds for sure, and many thought top 2 to 3. No one wanted him in the top round.

[Chicago White Sox]

I have no problem thinking that Kenny looked around to see what was out there and what it would cost him. It makes a lot more sense than just assuming he took the very first offer he got for a trade.

 

Actually I am telling you exactly that. There was a school of thought in the scouts that Allen had too many holes in his bat ala Borchard and Fields. It is seemingly turning out to be true, as he hasn't even been able to stick in a place that has a bad 1B situation. Plus you unknowingly justifying this deal when you talk about how prospects usually turnout. If there is a big risk bust, you can't hold their value at what their potential is, because of the very real chance of a bust. Especially in a hitter of the Allen-ilk, the bust risk is higher than normal. You can't fairly make the argument that he has a big bust risk, and he has a big trade value. One effects the other very directly.

I've followed Allen closely over the years and he was nothing like a Borchard or Fields when we traded him. When we first drafted him he was raw and had holes in his swing. But he made adjustments each year and continued to improve. By the time we traded him, he had great strike zone judgement, so I wouldn't say he had a huge risk of busting. The question with him was would he hit enough power in the pros to play 1B. That still remains to be seen, but it's pretty ridiculous to right him off based on 200 ABs, especially if he still might be an OF option. He's only 25 years old and been hitting well in AAA for a second year in a row, even if it the PCL.

 

As for not getting to play in Arizona despite their s***ty situation at 1B, what does that prove about him? We trot Juan Pierre out in LF everyday despite having option sitting in AAA. Does that mean Viciedo is a 4A player? No, it just means our manager and/or GM are idiots.

[dpd9189]

The Sox definitely have to improve their drafting/scouting/minor leagues asap because when this team gets old, they're going to get old real fast.

[southsider2k5]

I've followed Allen closely over the years and he was nothing like a Borchard or Fields when we traded him. When we first drafted him he was raw and had holes in his swing. But he made adjustments each year and continued to improve. By the time we traded him, he had great strike zone judgement, so I wouldn't say he had a huge risk of busting. The question with him was would he hit enough power in the pros to play 1B. That still remains to be seen, but it's pretty ridiculous to right him off based on 200 ABs, especially if he still might be an OF option. He's only 25 years old and been hitting well in AAA for a second year in a row, even if it the PCL.

 

As for not getting to play in Arizona despite their s***ty situation at 1B, what does that prove about him? We trot Juan Pierre out in LF everyday despite having option sitting in AAA. Does that mean Viciedo is a 4A player? No, it just means our manager and/or GM are idiots.

 

Allen was drafted out of the same town in Texas I spent three years living in when I was a kid. I followed his career with an extra interest just for that reason. Even in the minors he has always struck out at a pace of a K per game. His walk numbers weren't very good until 2010, which according to you doesn't matter because it happened after the trade. They were usually around the once per 10 ABs pace, which gives him 50 to 55ish walks on a full season, which is not "great strike zone judgement" by any stretch of the imagination, especially when combined with his huge K numbers.

[bigruss]

Would it not have made more sense to tie up this wasted money in player development? I have never seen this organization, supposedly one with limited financial resourses piss away sqaunder so much money and get so little back in return. Their player development is so awful, they have to overpay enormously just to get back replacement level talent.

 

What's interesting, is that before the 2009 season began, Sox management explained their lack of off season moves on the fact that the economy was awful and that revenue streams would be drying up. Then, inexplicably, they go out during the season and make the peavy and Rios moves. So what happened, from an economical standpoint to change their minds?

They had some money coming off the books that they figured would be balanced out by taking on these contracts. It was a huge gamble, and so far it's been a big loss for the Sox, and they didnt have enough other resources to shore up the team for the future.

 

Now we're stuck being all in with that really only being the option to compete with, unless we develop some guys out of nowhere real fast. As better as the drafting has been, they need more out of the system for replacements and trades if they hope to build a consistent winner again.

[LittleHurt05]

J4L rule #1: Juan Pierre is to never be complimented. Even on the rare occasion he does something positive.

Rule #2: Make fun of and mock Wite at all times.

 

Rule #3: Don't use words I don't know the meaning of. I've never heard that word in my life.

 

Even when he has an 11-game hitting streak and he hits a GW two-run single in the 9th to break a 1-1 tie? Just asking?