Despicable

[soxrwhite]

This one hurt....................Santos is not the answer either........................I guess closer by committee is up.

[BigSqwert]

I agree that this loss was a punch in the gut. Especially after seeing Cleveland and Detroit lose earlier in the evening.

[southsider2k5]

I was waiting to see how this game was Juan Pierres fault.

[BigSqwert]

I was waiting to see how this game was Juan Pierres fault.

He wasn't to blame but once again contributed nothing at all. It's amazing how many starters in our lineup add virtually nothing on a nightly basis.

[maggsmaggs]

What annoys me so much about this team is that it's always one step forward, one step back or one step forward, two steps back. We go out and kill two of the best pitchers in the AL against Seattle in Pineda/Hernandez, then we lose in dramatic fashion to the Ms who were starting Jason f***ing Vargas. Then the As, we kill Cahill, again on of the best, then we lose again in dramatic fashion to the As. It just seems like stunt our own momentum with catastrophic losses. And somehow we respond well to losses, and generally win the next night.

 

But we just never keep this positive momentum, we always go backward. That's why I can never see us winning more than 83/84 games, we are glued to this .500 mark. We always want to be right near it.

[Bubba Philips]

What annoys me so much about this team is that it's always one step forward, one step back or one step forward, two steps back. We go out and kill two of the best pitchers in the AL against Seattle in Pineda/Hernandez, then we lose in dramatic fashion to the Ms who were starting Jason f***ing Vargas. Then the As, we kill Cahill, again on of the best, then we lose again in dramatic fashion to the As. It just seems like stunt our own momentum with catastrophic losses. And somehow we respond well to losses, and generally win the next night.

 

But we just never keep this positive momentum, we always go backward. That's why I can never see us winning more than 83/84 games, we are glued to this .500 mark. We always want to be right near it.

I can't say anythinng except that Sergio was bound to blow one eventually. He wble finding having trouble finding the strike zone. He didn't have a strikeout pitch. However; I am a believer somewhat in luck and the broadcast was on CSN2 which is 666 on my direct tv progamming.

[Greg Hibbard]

The craziest thing was Pierzynski looking over to the dugout after ball 1 to Sizemore, basically imploring Guillen to immediately pull Santos for literally anyone (at least that's how I read it) and then trotting out to the mound hoping Ozzie would follow.

 

99% of people watching this game could see that Santos just didn't have it tonight, but Ozzie was going to let him lose this game anyway. Hell, I put in Buehrle on one day's rest to get this last out after watching everything. ANYONE. That's the kind of creative thinking that won a world series, not passively letting someone who had NOTHING bury your team all by himself.

 

We needed one out. he walked three and hit one, and Ozzie didn't even move towards the mound. Your closer just doesn't have it tonight. PULL HIM. In instances where he's not had it in other nights, he gives up more than 1 run.

 

Losing this game was the most ludicrous loss I've seen in a long time.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Greg Hibbard

[BigSqwert]

The craziest thing was Pierzynski looking over to the dugout after ball 1 to Sizemore, basically imploring Guillen to immediately pull Santos for literally anyone (at least that's how I read it) and then trotting out to the mound hoping Ozzie would follow.

 

99% of people watching this game could see that Santos just didn't have it tonight, but Ozzie was going to let him lose this game anyway. Hell, I put in Buehrle on one day's rest to get this last out after watching everything. ANYONE. That's the kind of creative thinking that won a world series, not passively letting someone who had NOTHING bury your team all by himself.

 

We needed one out. he walked three and hit one, and Ozzie didn't even move towards the mound. Your closer just doesn't have it tonight. PULL HIM. In instances where he's not had it in other nights, he gives up more than 1 run.

 

Losing this game was the most ludicrous loss I've seen in a long time.

Exactly. It was obvious to absolutely everyone watching the game that Santos was done and wouldn't get anyone else out. Just another example of Guillen not having any sense of what was happening out on the field and reacting too late. He truly is a terrible in game manager.

[BigEdWalsh]

The craziest thing was Pierzynski looking over to the dugout after ball 1 to Sizemore, basically imploring Guillen to immediately pull Santos for literally anyone (at least that's how I read it) and then trotting out to the mound hoping Ozzie would follow.

 

99% of people watching this game could see that Santos just didn't have it tonight, but Ozzie was going to let him lose this game anyway. Hell, I put in Buehrle on one day's rest to get this last out after watching everything. ANYONE. That's the kind of creative thinking that won a world series, not passively letting someone who had NOTHING bury your team all by himself.

 

We needed one out. he walked three and hit one, and Ozzie didn't even move towards the mound. Your closer just doesn't have it tonight. PULL HIM. In instances where he's not had it in other nights, he gives up more than 1 run.

 

Losing this game was the most ludicrous loss I've seen in a long time.

This was much like the game in Seattle when Ozzie stuck with Thornton way too long, only to have him blow it. This really was a ridiculous loss, as frustrating as it gets!

[elrockinMT]

We lost a game that we should have won. It was pretty embarassing. However, as usual we vent and rage and want to round up the usual suspects and execute them. I will take a pass on that. Saturday is a new game and hopefully we come out on top.

[Jake]

There are some HUGE ramifications to clubhouse and Santos' morale when you go out there and pull him before he blows it because he doesn't look right. He's earned the right to be the official closer, which means when he goes out there it's his game to lose. He hasn't squandered enough games to have that quick of a hook. Players would lose faith in their manager if he just gives up on guys that have been doing so well, we'd have another Brian Fuentes/Huston Street debacle. Santos knows his role, knows even if his first X amount of batters are horribly pitched he is in there until the game is won or lost. That's how it should be until further notice.

[greg775]

Exactly. It was obvious to absolutely everyone watching the game that Santos was done and wouldn't get anyone else out. Just another example of Guillen not having any sense of what was happening out on the field and reacting too late. He truly is a terrible in game manager.

 

I just truly wish we would fire Ozzie to please you people. Please please KW fire Ozzie.

 

Now you are second guessing leaving in a closer.

Now I have seen everything.

 

God I wish they'd fire Ozzie just to see you people rip the next manager as well.

You don't take out your closer (until after he blows the save).

You all know this BTW. You are too smart to not know this.

If that double off the wall was a deep shot caught by Rios, you'd all be happy.

If he gets one lucky pitch on two strikes past oh, four or five batters, you'd be content.

Sergio f***ed up. It happens. But take him out? Sure.

 

 

[ILMOU]

The craziest thing was Pierzynski looking over to the dugout after ball 1 to Sizemore, basically imploring Guillen to immediately pull Santos for literally anyone (at least that's how I read it) and then trotting out to the mound hoping Ozzie would follow.

 

99% of people watching this game could see that Santos just didn't have it tonight, but Ozzie was going to let him lose this game anyway. Hell, I put in Buehrle on one day's rest to get this last out after watching everything. ANYONE. That's the kind of creative thinking that won a world series, not passively letting someone who had NOTHING bury your team all by himself.

 

We needed one out. he walked three and hit one, and Ozzie didn't even move towards the mound. Your closer just doesn't have it tonight. PULL HIM. In instances where he's not had it in other nights, he gives up more than 1 run.

 

Losing this game was the most ludicrous loss I've seen in a long time.

 

Good call. I was thinking the same thing. I wish AJ would have have just waved Ozzie in for a conversation.

[claydude14]

I was reading my White Sox Outsider 2011 June recap from last year, and thought this was interesting:

 

 

Gas Can of the Month: Sergio Santos. Either the league caught up to Santos, or his workload did. After a nice and easy first two month, Santos' command betrayed him. He allowed nine hits and eight walks over 5 2/3 innings- good for a WHIP of 3.0 even- and allowed five runs, which pushed his season total to six.

 

[caulfield12]

It's not like Santos has been pitching his entire life...he's one of the five least experienced pitchers in baseball, if not #1 in that category.

 

I think letting him absorb HUGE defeats and numbers of pitches thrown in the 3 bad outings that Sergio has had this year has been more deflating for his confidence than if Ozzie would have had the earlier hook.

 

It's one thing if Santos had been the closer for 2-3 seasons, it's only been 4-5 weeks though, in this case.

 

When you just have that feeling in the pit of your stomach that the guy's just has ZERO confidence out there...well, obviously the opposing batters sensed the momentum of that entire inning and it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

Especially when you're down to the last batter (in the LAD game) or strike, you have to sense the other team is going to start feeding on the blood in the water when any life is breathed into them. You have to cut off the arm or leg to save the body in that situation. We'll see what happens, but personally I feel even less confident now in Santos because of the way Ozzie has handled him since he became the closer.

Edited June 11, 2011 by caulfield12

[Milkman delivers]

The craziest thing was Pierzynski looking over to the dugout after ball 1 to Sizemore, basically imploring Guillen to immediately pull Santos for literally anyone (at least that's how I read it) and then trotting out to the mound hoping Ozzie would follow.

 

99% of people watching this game could see that Santos just didn't have it tonight, but Ozzie was going to let him lose this game anyway. Hell, I put in Buehrle on one day's rest to get this last out after watching everything. ANYONE. That's the kind of creative thinking that won a world series, not passively letting someone who had NOTHING bury your team all by himself.

 

We needed one out. he walked three and hit one, and Ozzie didn't even move towards the mound. Your closer just doesn't have it tonight. PULL HIM. In instances where he's not had it in other nights, he gives up more than 1 run.

 

Losing this game was the most ludicrous loss I've seen in a long time.

 

I didn't see AJ looking to the dugout, but I clearly remember telling my buddy that it was obvious that Santos had nothing and he needed to be replaced by anyone when he loaded the bases.

[Dick Allen]

It's not like Santos has been pitching his entire life...he's one of the five least experienced pitchers in baseball, if not #1 in that category.

 

I think letting him absorb HUGE defeats and numbers of pitches thrown in the 3 bad outings that Sergio has had this year has been more deflating for his confidence than if Ozzie would have had the earlier hook.

 

It's one thing if Santos had been the closer for 2-3 seasons, it's only been 4-5 weeks though, in this case.

 

When you just have that feeling in the pit of your stomach that the guy's just has ZERO confidence out there...well, obviously the opposing batters sensed the momentum of that entire inning and it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

Especially when you're down to the last batter (in the LAD game) or strike, you have to sense the other team is going to start feeding on the blood in the water when any life is breathed into them. You have to cut off the arm or leg to save the body in that situation. We'll see what happens, but personally I feel even less confident now in Santos because of the way Ozzie has handled him since he became the closer.

I think its his inexperience that got him last night. He was fine for 2 hitters and 2 strikes. These are growing pains most pitchers go through. The Sox really need a bonafide closer. Santos may be a good one someday, maybe even great, but right now he needs some experience. The success he's had with how little he has pitched is incredible.

[ILMOU]

It's not like Santos has been pitching his entire life...he's one of the five least experienced pitchers in baseball, if not #1 in that category.

 

I think letting him absorb HUGE defeats and numbers of pitches thrown in the 3 bad outings that Sergio has had this year has been more deflating for his confidence than if Ozzie would have had the earlier hook.

 

It's one thing if Santos had been the closer for 2-3 seasons, it's only been 4-5 weeks though, in this case.

 

When you just have that feeling in the pit of your stomach that the guy's just has ZERO confidence out there...well, obviously the opposing batters sensed the momentum of that entire inning and it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

Especially when you're down to the last batter (in the LAD game) or strike, you have to sense the other team is going to start feeding on the blood in the water when any life is breathed into them. You have to cut off the arm or leg to save the body in that situation. We'll see what happens, but personally I feel even less confident now in Santos because of the way Ozzie has handled him since he became the closer.

 

Another interesting viewpoint.

 

Obviously, there are several sides to this, but it's clear to me that Ozzie's tougher in-game decisions have been overwhelmingly wrong at a very high percentage this year. Going back to the Soxtalk v. Ozzie thread that J4L had a few weeks back, we're ALL killing Ozzie in 2011.

[Dick Allen]

The craziest thing was Pierzynski looking over to the dugout after ball 1 to Sizemore, basically imploring Guillen to immediately pull Santos for literally anyone (at least that's how I read it) and then trotting out to the mound hoping Ozzie would follow.

 

99% of people watching this game could see that Santos just didn't have it tonight, but Ozzie was going to let him lose this game anyway. Hell, I put in Buehrle on one day's rest to get this last out after watching everything. ANYONE. That's the kind of creative thinking that won a world series, not passively letting someone who had NOTHING bury your team all by himself.

 

We needed one out. he walked three and hit one, and Ozzie didn't even move towards the mound. Your closer just doesn't have it tonight. PULL HIM. In instances where he's not had it in other nights, he gives up more than 1 run.

 

Losing this game was the most ludicrous loss I've seen in a long time.

The bench probably told AJ to go out to talk to him. There was no one warming up until the horses were out of the barn. One other thing I noticed yesterday, Coco Crisp cannot throw at all right now. He makes Juan Pierre look like Roberto Clemente. I know he's always had a weak arm, but something is wrong with him. On fly balls with no one on, he's basically rolling them back in to the cutoff man. I seriously believe any White Sox with at least average speed should try for a double on anything hit to him. Its that bad.

[BigEdWalsh]

There are some HUGE ramifications to clubhouse and Santos' morale when you go out there and pull him before he blows it because he doesn't look right. He's earned the right to be the official closer, which means when he goes out there it's his game to lose. He hasn't squandered enough games to have that quick of a hook. Players would lose faith in their manager if he just gives up on guys that have been doing so well, we'd have another Brian Fuentes/Huston Street debacle. Santos knows his role, knows even if his first X amount of batters are horribly pitched he is in there until the game is won or lost. That's how it should be until further notice.

There's a huge ramification to clubhouse and Santos' morale when you don't go out there and pull him: LOSING. If these guys' morale and ego are so fragile don't we want to spare them the shame and humility of blowing a game big time? While the White Sox are in pursuit of 1st place maybe doing WHATEVER it takes to win should take priority to the feelings of any particular players. Besides, doesn't winning do wonders for clubhouse morale? Look at the way Oakland reacted to breaking their losing streak. I'm sure their clubhouse morale is on a high today.

[Dick Allen]

There's a huge ramification to clubhouse and Santos' morale when you don't go out there and pull him: LOSING. If these guys' morale and ego are so fragile don't we want to spare them the shame and humility of blowing a game big time? While the White Sox are in pursuit of 1st place maybe doing WHATEVER it takes to win should take priority to the feelings of any particular players. Besides, doesn't winning do wonders for clubhouse morale? Look at the way Oakland reacted to breaking their losing streak. I'm sure their clubhouse morale is on a high today.

Crain had pitched 3 out of the last 4 days, so he probably wasn't available. Thornton was spent. If Ozzie brings in Harrell or Ohman and they blow the game, people who think they should have pulled Santos would be complaining about the Sox pulling their closer. I have no trouble with Ozzie leaving him in there. He cruised threw the first 2 hitters easily. Sizemore had a big hit. Looking at the back of his baseball card, odds are usually against that.

[Balta1701]

Crain had pitched 3 out of the last 4 days, so he probably wasn't available. Thornton was spent. If Ozzie brings in Harrell or Ohman and they blow the game, people who think they should have pulled Santos would be complaining about the Sox pulling their closer. I have no trouble with Ozzie leaving him in there. He cruised threw the first 2 hitters easily. Sizemore had a big hit. Looking at the back of his baseball card, odds are usually against that.

Honestly...we all knew what was coming after the HBP. It was only a question of whether it would be a walk, wild pitch, or whether it would be something nearly hit out.

 

That said...anyone who's pretending they'd have pulled Santos there isn't managing for a reason. MLB's built up this "Closer" aura, if you're going to have a closer, he stays in there.

[caulfield12]

The fact of the matter is that we were very fortunate to get through the 7th and 8th with the way both Sale and Bruney pitched.

 

Can anyone honestly say they envisioned Brian Bruney having a key role to play in the 8th of a close to "must win" game that we were leading in the middle of the summer? I can't.

 

Yes, Dick Allen is right. No doubt if Lucas Harrell was the option, or even Ohman....we all would have gone nuts and said "how could you possibly take out your single best pitcher of the season (along with Humber)" for the last guy on your roster?

 

Well, someone made the argument about Buehrle/Ozuna and how they came in (or almost) into that World Series as relievers. After the bases were loaded or probably one batter earlier, you'd at least have to think about putting one of the starters out there. Of course, that could have blown up too...the starter would have had the additional stress of warming up (of course, they have their normal throwing routines and bullpen sessions between starts anyway) and then maybe they end up going on the DL later and you second guess yourself even more.

 

Impossible situation, really. Buehrle would be the logical pick because of his control....Jackson would have been tempting, had he not already been the starter, but his control issues and propensity for wild pitches as a reliever? Humber or Floyd, I would have been pretty comfortable with.

 

Still, when's the last time a major league manager put a starter out there (in a game that wasn't extra innings or tied and the entire bullpen wasn't emptied first) in the middle of a June game? Can anyone remember? Baseball-reference?

 

 

[South Side Fireworks Man]

I didn't see AJ looking to the dugout, but I clearly remember telling my buddy that it was obvious that Santos had nothing and he needed to be replaced by anyone when he loaded the bases.

Yeah, AJ gestured with his hands way out as if he were saying "WTF?"

[greg775]

It's not like Santos has been pitching his entire life...he's one of the five least experienced pitchers in baseball, if not #1 in that category.

 

I think letting him absorb HUGE defeats and numbers of pitches thrown in the 3 bad outings that Sergio has had this year has been more deflating for his confidence than if Ozzie would have had the earlier hook.

 

It's one thing if Santos had been the closer for 2-3 seasons, it's only been 4-5 weeks though, in this case.

 

When you just have that feeling in the pit of your stomach that the guy's just has ZERO confidence out there...well, obviously the opposing batters sensed the momentum of that entire inning and it became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

Especially when you're down to the last batter (in the LAD game) or strike, you have to sense the other team is going to start feeding on the blood in the water when any life is breathed into them. You have to cut off the arm or leg to save the body in that situation. We'll see what happens, but personally I feel even less confident now in Santos because of the way Ozzie has handled him since he became the closer.

 

The A's had lost 10 in a row. He needed one out.

My god. The A's "feeding on the blood in the water?" The A's, who are on the road losers of 10 in a row?

Sergio f***ed up. It happens.

But like somebody said. If the sox brought in one of those other rag arms and the inevitable fail happened, you would crucify Ozzie the same.

Second guessing leaving in a closer IMO is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

 

Truthfully I can't believe some A's player didn't hit a bullet at third or line smash right at an outfielder and we get lucky and still win the game.

It really is difficult to blow a game like that. The odds are astronomical you blow a 2 run lead with 2 out and nobody on.

Edited June 11, 2011 by greg775