southsider2k5 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:25 PM) Heck. If you're going to add Lebron then you'll have to add a slew of other guys who never won a title like Barkley, Stockton, and Malone. None of those guys had anywhere near the abilities and talents of LeBron. Unfortunately LeBron has none of those guys's work ethics either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:21 PM) I think I'll wait until he's 33-34 before I make that claim. I don't think he'll ever develop the things he should, but there is still a chance he disappears for a summer and develops a post game. I know things change, and that is why I included the qualifier about as of today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:25 PM) Heck. If you're going to add Lebron then you'll have to add a slew of other guys who never won a title like Barkley, Stockton, and Malone. Do you really believe those guys are underachievers? I don't. They were GREAT players who ran into some of the best teams of the last 20 years (Jordan's Bulls and Hakeem's Rockets). I really do believe LeBron will get his ring at some point. He definitely choked on a fat one in this last finals. But the dude still has a ROY, scoring title, two MVPs, and some of the most efficient nseasons the NBA has ever seen. Edited June 20, 2011 by Jordan4life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:16 PM) Cousins on the same underachievers roster, I love it. It really depends on what you consider an underachiever. You have All-Stars on this roster, while I tend to want to put a guy who never amounted to s*** like Michael Olowakandi on there. I would tend to lean towards someone like Olowakandi being just a bad pick instead of being an underachiever. If he had any kind of talent whatsoever, don't you think he'd have been at least a serviceable center instead of a complete bust? It's not like it takes that much to be an above average center in the league right now. The same thing with guys like Stromile Swift or Kwame Brown. They might have had the physical tools, but they clearly lack basketball skills. I'm trying not assume that guys would develop tools that they didn't already have. I guess my definition is which guys were the farthest from their ceiling. Someone like Swift would reasonably be expected to be something like Josh Smith if he panned out, whereas someone like Vince Carter could have been at least a Dominique Wilkins type, if not higher up the food chain. At least in my opinion, the gap between being an all-time great and a garden variety All-Star is bigger than the gap between being an NBA bench player and an average to slightly above average NBA player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:28 PM) None of those guys had anywhere near the abilities and talents of LeBron. Unfortunately LeBron has none of those guys's work ethics either. Christ, how many league MVP's does LeBron need to win? I know it's fashionable to pile on LeBron and hilarious how bad he was in the 4th quarters of these NBA Finals, but he's nowhere near any all-time underachiever list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:28 PM) Do you really believe those guys are underachievers? Not at all. I was just giving an example of why you can't lump LeBron into the underachiever group just because he hasn't won a title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I agree, he is not an all-time underachiever at this point. However, by definition of the word underachieve, he has done that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:30 PM) Not at all. I was just giving an example of why you can't lump LeBron into the underachiever group just because he hasn't won a title. lol. My bad. I interpreted that post in a way you obviously didn't mean. My fault. I read too fast sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (WHarris1 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:31 PM) I agree, he is not an all-time underachiever at this point. However, by definition of the word underachieve, he has done that. He's averaged 27.7 points, 7.1 boards, and 7.0 assists over 627 games. Cut the guy a break... that's some amazing s*** right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:28 PM) Do you really believe those guys are underachievers? I don't. They were GREAT players who ran into some of the best teams of the last 20 years (Jordan's Bulls and Hakeem's Rockets). I really do believe LeBron will get his ring at some point. He definitely choked on a fat one in thi last finals. But the dude still has a ROY, scoring title, Two MVPs, and some of the most efficnent seasons the NBA has ever seen. Seriously. It's a stretch to say that a multi-MVP winner is a massive underachiever. By the same logic, are we going to include Shaq? With his size and athleticism, should he have won even MORE rings and MVP's? Should Wilt Chamberlain have had more 50-30 type seasons? Now if Lebron NEVER wins a ring that would be another story, but saying it right now is a little ridiculous. He's still going to be a first ballot hall of famer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjshoe04 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Eddy Curry should be at least the backup center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:32 PM) Eddy Curry should be at least the backup center. That's a great name for the list as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:30 PM) Christ, how many league MVP's does LeBron need to win? I know it's fashionable to pile on LeBron and hilarious how bad he was in the 4th quarters of these NBA Finals, but he's nowhere near any all-time underachiever list. QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:32 PM) He's averaged 27.7 points, 7.1 boards, and 7.0 assists over 627 games. Cut the guy a break... that's some amazing s*** right there. QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:32 PM) Seriously. It's a stretch to say that a multi-MVP winner is a massive underachiever. By the same logic, are we going to include Shaq? With his size and athleticism, should he have won even MORE rings and MVP's? Should Wilt Chamberlain have had more 50-30 type seasons? Now if Lebron NEVER wins a ring that would be another story, but saying it right now is a little ridiculous. He's still going to be a first ballot hall of famer. To me there is a big difference between stats and achievement. Obvious numberswise you can't say LeBron underachieved. But all you have to do is watch the guy to know he leaves a lot on the floor. To me that is the ultimate in underachieving, stats be damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:32 PM) Eddy Curry should be at least the backup center. I guess he would be a good candidate to be my starting center on the team, but using different logic. If he had actually worked to get in shape and gotten down to like 260 pounds, he had enough skill to be a difference-making center. He had a better touch around the basket than virtually anyone in the league right now, but he's too fat and slow to defend or rebound. An in-shape Eddy Curry is probably capable of putting up 20-10 on a regular basis, which is very far from what he's done in his career. I'd say that makes him a pretty major underachiever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:37 PM) To me there is a big difference between stats and achievement. Obvious numberswise you can't say LeBron underachieved. But all you have to do is watch the guy to know he leaves a lot on the floor. To me that is the ultimate in underachieving, stats be damned. Yes, reality be damned. Great point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:45 PM) Yes, reality be damned. Great point. I hate to break this to you, but stats aren't the reality. The games played are the reality. I don't see how anyone could argue that LeBron is anywhere near what he should be on the floor. (And I haven't seen anyone here do that yet) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:37 PM) To me there is a big difference between stats and achievement. Obvious numberswise you can't say LeBron underachieved. But all you have to do is watch the guy to know he leaves a lot on the floor. To me that is the ultimate in underachieving, stats be damned. You're putting way too much stock in this year's finals. Are you really saying he should have done more with the Cavs? How many guys would have been able to carry that awful team to the NBA Finals like when he almost single-handedly beat the Pistons? How many guys would have won 60+ games his last two years in Cleveland? Sure, they lost in the playoffs, but Orlando and Boston were just better than them. How many guys would have been able to win a series when his second best player was as awful as Mo Williams was? I mean Jesus, Lebron averaged 38-8-8 against Orlando and they still had no chance. He wasn't as good against Boston, but he still averaged 27-9-7. He was super-human in the only two games they won that series, it's hard when you have to do that EVERY game. This past year is the first time you can legitimately say he SHOULD have won a title, and even then an awful lot of people were looking at Boston or the Bulls to win the East and the Lakers to win it all. I'd love to see what you would have said about Jordan in the summer of 1990... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:54 PM) You're putting way too much stock in this year's finals. Are you really saying he should have done more with the Cavs? How many guys would have been able to carry that awful team to the NBA Finals like when he almost single-handedly beat the Pistons? How many guys would have won 60+ games his last two years in Cleveland? Sure, they lost in the playoffs, but Orlando and Boston were just better than them. How many guys would have been able to win a series when his second best player was as awful as Mo Williams was? I mean Jesus, Lebron averaged 38-8-8 against Orlando and they still had no chance. He wasn't as good against Boston, but he still averaged 27-9-7. He was super-human in the only two games they won that series, it's hard when you have to do that EVERY game. This past year is the first time you can legitimately say he SHOULD have won a title, and even then an awful lot of people were looking at Boston or the Bulls to win the East and the Lakers to win it all. I'd love to see what you would have said about Jordan in the summer of 1990... There was a fairly sizable feeling that he quit in his last NBA finals as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjshoe04 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:44 PM) I guess he would be a good candidate to be my starting center on the team, but using different logic. If he had actually worked to get in shape and gotten down to like 260 pounds, he had enough skill to be a difference-making center. He had a better touch around the basket than virtually anyone in the league right now, but he's too fat and slow to defend or rebound. An in-shape Eddy Curry is probably capable of putting up 20-10 on a regular basis, which is very far from what he's done in his career. I'd say that makes him a pretty major underachiever. The guy could score at will. I can't remember how many times the Bulls would feed him the ball and he would put up our first 6-10 points of the game. Then he would get lazy and completely disappear. His rebounding numbers really show the underachievement. Just brutal. I truly believe a motivated Eddy Curry could have averaged 20-25 points and 10+ boards a game. He really really likes cheeseburgers though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 02:49 PM) I hate to break this to you, but stats aren't the reality. The games played are the reality. I don't see how anyone could argue that LeBron is anywhere near what he should be on the floor. (And I haven't seen anyone here do that yet) I hope the game tape you reviewed of all 700+ regular season and playoff games he's participated in was entertaining. You're pulling s*** out of your ass because of an overblown NBA Finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 03:07 PM) I hope the game tape you reviewed of all 700+ regular season and playoff games he's participated in was entertaining. You're pulling s*** out of your ass because of an overblown NBA Finals. So I take it you have reviewed all 700 of his games to know that it wasn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I kinda see where both sides are coming from on this one, since I'm of the opinion that Lebron ought to be dominating the league in a way we've never seen before, but yeah, he sorta is dominating the league, just not as much as he should be. Hell, could say the same thing about Howard. Let's try asking this in a different way...2k5, based on what we've seen from Lebron so far in his career, what would you say would be different if he hadn't "Underachieved"? Stats, rings, etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 03:13 PM) So I take it you have reviewed all 700 of his games to know that it wasn't? I've seen enough, and I'm not the one being over-reactionary to one series. The man has been NBA MVP multiple times and has the stellar stats to back it up. You cannot call LeBron James an underachiever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 03:01 PM) There was a fairly sizable feeling that he quit in his last NBA finals as well. You mean when they got swept by the Spurs? He was 22 for christ's sake, playing with a lineup of such monsters as Larry Hughes, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Sasha Pavlovic and Eric Snow. They weren't remotely in that series. The Cavs didn't have a 4th quarter lead until game 4, and the 3-time champion Spurs went on a run to close them out in a sweep. They shouldn't have even been there in the first place, the only reason they were is Lebron scored 29 of the team's last 30 points in game 7 against Detroit. I swear, it's like Lebron has to be better than Michael Jordan in Space Jam to make you happy, and even MJ still had Bugs Bunny on his team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 03:14 PM) I kinda see where both sides are coming from on this one, since I'm of the opinion that Lebron ought to be dominating the league in a way we've never seen before, but yeah, he sorta is dominating the league, just not as much as he should be. Hell, could say the same thing about Howard. Let's try asking this in a different way...2k5, based on what we've seen from Lebron so far in his career, what would you say would be different if he hadn't "Underachieved"? Stats, rings, etc.? That is another way of saying pretty much the same thing that I have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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