2011-2012 OFFICIAL NBA LOCKOUT thread

[Felix]

Richardson's been a pretty good shooter since he left Golden State though. His TS% has never dipped below .554 since he left the Warriors.

TS%

2010-11: Richardson .555, Smith .550

2009-10: Richardson .574, Smith .515

2008-09: Richardson .571, Smith .576

2007-08: Richardson .554, Smith .603

2006-07: Richardson .512, Smith .585

 

Points Per Shot

2010-11: Richardson 1.18, Smith 1.24

2009-10: Richardson 1.24, Smith 1.12

2008-09: Richardson 1.24, Smith 1.30

2007-08: Richardson 1.22, Smith 1.35

2006-07: Richardson 1.11, Smith 1.27

 

Remind me again how one of these players is incredibly inefficient and the other is an awful chucker? ESPECIALLY when you factor in their age?

 

Steve has literally no idea what he's talking about here.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Felix

[GoodAsGould]

Honestly Ill take either one, I think Jrich would fit in with the team better but if Thibs and Drose think they can handle everything JR brings he obviously is more talented and younger.

[chw42]

TS%

2010-11: Richardson .555, Smith .550

2009-10: Richardson .574, Smith .515

2008-09: Richardson .571, Smith .576

2007-08: Richardson .554, Smith .603

2006-07: Richardson .512, Smith .585

 

Points Per Shot

2010-11: Richardson 1.18, Smith 1.24

2009-10: Richardson 1.24, Smith 1.12

2008-09: Richardson 1.24, Smith 1.30

2007-08: Richardson 1.22, Smith 1.35

2006-07: Richardson 1.11, Smith 1.27

 

Remind me again how one of these players is incredibly inefficient and the other is an awful chucker? ESPECIALLY when you factor in their age?

 

Steve has literally no idea what he's talking about here.

 

I never said Steve was right. I was just pointing out that Richardson's been better than what his career TS% indicates in the past few years.

[Felix]

I never said Steve was right.

Oh, I know. You're smarter than that

Edited June 28, 2011 by Felix

[Jordan4life_2007]

I still fancy Ellis. I'll take the pros over the cons.

[nitetrain8601]

I still fancy Ellis. I'll take the pros over the cons.

 

The Bulls don't. That kills that talk. As far as JR Smith vs Jason Richardson, I'd say Richardson is a better bet to be more consistent, but JR Smith provides elite scoring when he's on. He goes through hot and cold streaks big time. Richardson is more even keel. Smith will give you a 50 point game when feeling it and given the ball. But he'll come out with a 12 point game under the exact same circumstances the following game. Richardson will give you 18 one game, then 16 the next.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The Bulls don't. That kills that talk. As far as JR Smith vs Jason Richardson, I'd say Richardson is a better bet to be more consistent, but JR Smith provides elite scoring when he's on. He goes through hot and cold streaks big time. Richardson is more even keel. Smith will give you a 50 point game when feeling it and given the ball. But he'll come out with a 12 point game under the exact same circumstances the following game. Richardson will give you 18 one game, then 16 the next.

 

When I think Richardson, I think early 2000s dunk contests. He's just never had any real impact of essence. I like Smith. Give me talent over hardworking guys who dont get in trouble with no talent. I totally get the cons with a guy like Ellis. But the pros are sufficient enough for me.

 

 

[Steve9347]

I hate to burst your bubble, because I know you are just having a great time right now, I mean, like, the most fun you've ever had, but there's a big difference between the usage of JR Smith and Jason Richardson. Really, arguing that JR Smith is a better player than Jason Richardson just shows that anyone can cherry-pick stats.

 

Over the last four seasons, Jason Richardson (313 games played) has been the more effective player across the board than JR Smith (308 games played), despite being a much more focal point of his team's offense.

 

Richardson and Smith are nearly identical in PER over the past 4 seasons (16.74 to 16.675, slight edge to J-Rich). However, Richardson has the advantage over Smith in FG%, 3P%, FT% (and obviously and inherently points, boards, etc as he carries more of a workload).

 

 

JR Smith, despite playing 9.5 fewer MPG over that span of 300+ games, turns the ball over more than Richardson.

 

In the end, you've got two solid, but not ideal options for the Bulls come FA whenever that becomes feasible. To just check-mate this as Smith being the better player, or better shooter, or better scorer, well, that just ignores facts. The man can shoot the ball and would be an obvious upgrade for the Bulls, and I imagine he'd also be cheaper and age better throughout the contract.

 

I guess the reputation that comes with JR Smith scares me away, but I think that reputation is more perceived than factual as I go through the Google logs. Depending on the CBA, I'd rather Richardson in the short term, but JR would be a solid consolation prize. So you've opened my eyes a tad to JR Smith, though I don't see why you are getting so worked up, c'est la vie.

[Dick Allen]

I hate to burst your bubble, because I know you are just having a great time right now, I mean, like, the most fun you've ever had, but there's a big difference between the usage of JR Smith and Jason Richardson. Really, arguing that JR Smith is a better player than Jason Richardson just shows that anyone can cherry-pick stats.

 

Over the last four seasons, Jason Richardson (313 games played) has been the more effective player across the board than JR Smith (308 games played), despite being a much more focal point of his team's offense.

 

Richardson and Smith are nearly identical in PER over the past 4 seasons (16.74 to 16.675, slight edge to J-Rich). However, Richardson has the advantage over Smith in FG%, 3P%, FT% (and obviously and inherently points, boards, etc as he carries more of a workload).

 

 

JR Smith, despite playing 9.5 fewer MPG over that span of 300+ games, turns the ball over more than Richardson.

 

In the end, you've got two solid, but not ideal options for the Bulls come FA whenever that becomes feasible. To just check-mate this as Smith being the better player, or better shooter, or better scorer, well, that just ignores facts. The man can shoot the ball and would be an obvious upgrade for the Bulls, and I imagine he'd also be cheaper and age better throughout the contract.

 

I guess the reputation that comes with JR Smith scares me away, but I think that reputation is more perceived than factual as I go through the Google logs. Depending on the CBA, I'd rather Richardson in the short term, but JR would be a solid consolation prize. So you've opened my eyes a tad to JR Smith, though I don't see why you are getting so worked up, c'est la vie.

 

No need to worry or argue. You have a better chance of seeing the Lord than John Paxson, Jerry Reinsdorf and Gar Foreman offering JR Smith any money.

 

[Felix]

I hate to burst your bubble, because I know you are just having a great time right now, I mean, like, the most fun you've ever had, but there's a big difference between the usage of JR Smith and Jason Richardson. Really, arguing that JR Smith is a better player than Jason Richardson just shows that anyone can cherry-pick stats.

 

Over the last four seasons, Jason Richardson (313 games played) has been the more effective player across the board than JR Smith (308 games played), despite being a much more focal point of his team's offense.

 

Richardson and Smith are nearly identical in PER over the past 4 seasons (16.74 to 16.675, slight edge to J-Rich). However, Richardson has the advantage over Smith in FG%, 3P%, FT% (and obviously and inherently points, boards, etc as he carries more of a workload).

 

 

JR Smith, despite playing 9.5 fewer MPG over that span of 300+ games, turns the ball over more than Richardson.

 

In the end, you've got two solid, but not ideal options for the Bulls come FA whenever that becomes feasible. To just check-mate this as Smith being the better player, or better shooter, or better scorer, well, that just ignores facts. The man can shoot the ball and would be an obvious upgrade for the Bulls, and I imagine he'd also be cheaper and age better throughout the contract.

 

I guess the reputation that comes with JR Smith scares me away, but I think that reputation is more perceived than factual as I go through the Google logs. Depending on the CBA, I'd rather Richardson in the short term, but JR would be a solid consolation prize. So you've opened my eyes a tad to JR Smith, though I don't see why you are getting so worked up, c'est la vie.

I never once said that JR Smith was a better player than Jason Richardson. I've only said that it is simply preposterous to claim JR Smith is a chucker who only scores because he shoots while Richardson is the opposite.

 

I'll also point out that there is nothing at all in your post that talks about efficiency, which was your initial point in the first place.

 

I also continue to find your new dedication to advanced stats to be nothing short of hypocritical. Keep at it though, as long as you're consistent about it from here one out.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Felix

[Felix]

I still fancy Ellis. I'll take the pros over the cons.

Ellis + Rose is just a bad combination (which isn't to say they are bad players, they both just have similar play styles and similar weaknesses). Both are inefficient players that need the ball to create, and neither is big enough or talented enough defensively to actually guard opposing teams 2s. Individually, they're both very good players, but I don't see how they could work together efficiently.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Felix

[Jordan4life_2007]

I hate to burst your bubble, because I know you are just having a great time right now, I mean, like, the most fun you've ever had, but there's a big difference between the usage of JR Smith and Jason Richardson. Really, arguing that JR Smith is a better player than Jason Richardson just shows that anyone can cherry-pick stats.

 

Over the last four seasons, Jason Richardson (313 games played) has been the more effective player across the board than JR Smith (308 games played), despite being a much more focal point of his team's offense.

 

Richardson and Smith are nearly identical in PER over the past 4 seasons (16.74 to 16.675, slight edge to J-Rich). However, Richardson has the advantage over Smith in FG%, 3P%, FT% (and obviously and inherently points, boards, etc as he carries more of a workload).

 

 

JR Smith, despite playing 9.5 fewer MPG over that span of 300+ games, turns the ball over more than Richardson.

 

In the end, you've got two solid, but not ideal options for the Bulls come FA whenever that becomes feasible. To just check-mate this as Smith being the better player, or better shooter, or better scorer, well, that just ignores facts. The man can shoot the ball and would be an obvious upgrade for the Bulls, and I imagine he'd also be cheaper and age better throughout the contract.

 

I guess the reputation that comes with JR Smith scares me away, but I think that reputation is more perceived than factual as I go through the Google logs. Depending on the CBA, I'd rather Richardson in the short term, but JR would be a solid consolation prize. So you've opened my eyes a tad to JR Smith, though I don't see why you are getting so worked up, c'est la vie.

 

I agree they're similar. But Smith is 5 years younger.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Jordan4life

[Steve9347]

I never once said that JR Smith was a better player than Jason Richardson. I've only said that it is simply preposterous to claim JR Smith is a chucker who only scores because he shoots while Richardson is the opposite.

 

I'll also point out that there is nothing at all in your post that talks about efficiency, which was your initial point in the first place.

 

I also continue to find your new dedication to advanced stats to be nothing short of hypocritical. Keep at it though, as long as you're consistent about it from here one out.

You mean aside from the PER stats, right? Like I said, they're almost identical.

 

The only time I'll hate on advanced stats is when I'm looking through Rose-colored glasses.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Steve9347

[Jordan4life_2007]

Ellis + Rose is just a bad combination (which isn't to say they are bad players, they both just have similar play styles and similar weaknesses). Both are inefficient players that need the ball to create, and neither is big enough or talented enough defensively to actually guard opposing teams 2s. Individually, they're both very good players, but I don't see how they could work together efficiently.

 

I know. I just prefer him over J-rich and Smith. I'd put it on TT to make it work somehow. If LeBron/Wade didn't exist I'd be a lot more demanding.

[Felix]

You mean aside from the PER stats, right?

I don't really consider PER a true efficiency stat. chw42 has gone on about it in this thread before, it's simply a very flawed stat.

 

But sure, even using that, there isn't a significant difference between Smith and Richardson, which was my point in the first place.

 

The only time I'll hate on advanced stats is when I'm looking through Rose-colored glasses.

aka hypocritical

Edited June 29, 2011 by Felix

[Steve9347]

aka hypocritical

You are an uptight dude. Rose = MVP so f*** it all.

[Felix]

I like my favorite players too, but to completely ignore everything that you claim to believe in just to make yourself feel better about a player you like is simply stupid.

 

It's very possible to like someone and recognize that they aren't perfect and have flaws.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Felix

[southsider2k5]

This whole advanced penis sizing argument is pointless. Tom Thibideau is not going to bring JR Smith to Chicago.

[chw42]

I don't really consider PER a true efficiency stat. chw42 has gone on about it in this thread before, it's simply a very flawed stat.

 

But sure, even using that, there isn't a significant difference between Smith and Richardson, which was my point in the first place.

 

 

aka hypocritical

 

That it is. PER actually favors shot chucking at times.

[RockRaines]

Bar graphs, really?

[BigSqwert]

Bar graphs, really?

I demand more pie charts....and cowbell!

[chw42]

Bar graphs, really?

 

Seriously, when did Steve pull out the analytic stuff?

 

Kalapse barely does that!

[bmags]

I don't really consider PER a true efficiency stat. chw42 has gone on about it in this thread before, it's simply a very flawed stat.

 

But sure, even using that, there isn't a significant difference between Smith and Richardson, which was my point in the first place.

 

I'm torn on the two, I feel like attitude wise I'd much, much prefer Richardson, but I like the fact that JR Smith has a lot of confidence. Down the stretch the team had a bunch of guys scared to take the shot. JR Smith would not be. On the other hand, that could be a disaster in itself.

[maggsmaggs]

According to NBA executives familiar with the league’s strategies, once the lockout is in place, the owners will push for a hard salary cap of $45 million, the elimination of guaranteed contracts and ask that the players swallow a 33 percent salary cut.

 

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2...owners-players/

 

Dear god that would be awful. Just as a reference point, the Bulls payroll for 2011-2012 is $60,726,162 for ONLY 10 players (Boozer, Deng, Rose, Noah, Korver, Brewer, Watson, Asik, Bogans and Gibson).

 

And the Bulls have to re-sign Rose to a max deal. This is gonna be a long long long winter without any basketball.

[southsider2k5]

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2...owners-players/

 

Dear god that would be awful. Just as a reference point, the Bulls payroll for 2011-2012 is $60,726,162 for ONLY 10 players (Boozer, Deng, Rose, Noah, Korver, Brewer, Watson, Asik, Bogans and Gibson).

 

And the Bulls have to re-sign Rose to a max deal. This is gonna be a long long long winter without any basketball.

 

A 33% cap haircut would put us at $40 million.

 

There would obviously be a phase in period for any major changes like this, and probably a special buyout provision to buy out long term deals to get under the new hard cap.