2011-2012 OFFICIAL NBA LOCKOUT thread

[Steve9347]

Again, small sample size. By that measure Robert Horry is the best of all time.

Jordan still wins.

[ZoomSlowik]

Anyone been following ESPN's NBA player rankings? Pretty terrible top ten.

 

Lebron - how? He's not even the best player on his team.

Howard - Top 10, dunno about 2. Best defensive player, but still a liability on offense late in games

Wade - when healthy and rested he's one of the best. #2 in my book.

Dirk - #1 right now, not sure how anyone can question that.

CP3 - too high. this is a list of greatest players, not potential greatest players.

Durant - about right

Kobe - about right

Rose - few spots too low but can't complain

DWill - love the guy but too high. Has yet to show he can lead a team to a deep playoff run like some of these other guys. Still a top 3 PG though.

Griffin - ridiculous. no where close to top 10. Probably the best or second best PF in the game, but his team won about 30 games last year.

 

Other questionables:

 

Kevin Love at 16

Rondo at 17

 

Lebron- Have people really forgotten what he did in Cleveland already? That roster had no business winning 60 games. People put too much stock in one series. He's probably the most physically gifted player in the league and more skilled than most.

 

Howard- He averaged over 20 points per game this past year while shooting an insane percentage. Just because he can't make free throws doesn't mean he isn't one of the most dominant players in the game (see Shaq)

 

Wade- He's really good, but Lebron is basically a bigger, better passing version of Wade. Dwayne is also a lot more injury prone.

 

Dirk- You're getting way too wrapped up in one good playoff run. He's had plenty of playoff failings himself and is an average defender and rebounder. He may be the best offensive player in the league, but overall is a bit of a stretch (it's nitpicking a bit in the top-5 though)

 

Paul- 5 might be a hair too high, but he's arguably the best all-around PG in the league (though I think Rose makes a bigger overall impact). I'm not sure what the "potential" comment is about, he's the only reason the Hornets can make the playoffs.

 

Deron- I'll agree here, especially since he's coming off a down year.

 

Griffin- If he's the best or second best power forward in the league, how can that be a ridiculously high rating? He already averaged like 22-12-4 as a rookie and is only going to get better.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Again, small sample size. By that measure Robert Horry is the best of all time.

 

I'm not saying that's the only measure, but that's a huge negative if you shy away from pressure moments and fail to win the big game or hit the big shot. Lebron is the most gift athlete in the league. He might put up the best stats in the league. But at the end of the day the game is about winning and winning big games and he doesn't do that. It's not like the guy has had one shot at this and missed...

 

And again, i'm not suggesting he's not a top 5 kind of guy. I just don't think he's the best "by a large margin."

[Rowand44]

LeBron has exhausted all of his excuses at this point. I flip flopped about a million times on this last year but once again LBJ showed his true colors in the finals after being fantastic against the Bulls. And Zoom, it's not one series, it's happened numerous times with this guy, he's the most physically gifted player I've certainly ever seen but he has to win something, anything before I can put him at the top of the NBA again. If you can't win with arguably the most talented team ever assembled, then when the hell are you going to win?

[ZoomSlowik]

End of the game, championship on the line. Who do you give the ball to? Wade or Lebron? Unless you answer Lebron, I dunno how he can be considered the greatest.

 

You give it to Lebron because he's a slightly better shooter and because he'll find the open man more often than Wade if the play breaks down. You want your guy to make the best basketball play, not force a shot just because he's "the man".

 

Second, that's an incredibly limited argument that basically asks, "who is the best scorer"? The crunch time stats say that Carmelo is the best option down the stretch, and no one would argue that he's the best player in the league.

[Jenksismyhero]

You give it to Lebron because he's a slightly better shooter and because he'll find the open man more often than Wade if the play breaks down. You want your guy to make the best basketball play, not force a shot just because he's "the man".

 

Second, that's an incredibly limited argument that basically asks, "who is the best scorer"? The crunch time stats say that Carmelo is the best option down the stretch, and no one would argue that he's the best player in the league.

 

Well you're crazy. I'll take the guy with a slightly lower fg% that has the balls to take the shot over the guy that passes on the shot. Didn't it become a joke midway through the season last year when Lebron continued to get the big shot to win the game and continued to miss?

 

And again, i'm not saying that's the ONLY measure. But at some point skill and athleticism mean dick if you can't deliver wins. We're talking about who is the best of the great players. The intangibles come into play in that argument, and I think last year was pretty obvious what Lebron lacks.

[ZoomSlowik]

LeBron has exhausted all of his excuses at this point. I flip flopped about a million times on this last year but once again LBJ showed his true colors in the finals after being fantastic against the Bulls. And Zoom, it's not one series, it's happened numerous times with this guy, he's the most physically gifted player I've certainly ever seen but he has to win something, anything before I can put him at the top of the NBA again. If you can't win with arguably the most talented team ever assembled, then when the hell are you going to win?

 

I really hate the rings argument because it ignores everyone's teammates. Lebron has played with a pile of crap in Cleveland for most of his career and still has two NBA Finals appearances, one of which came because he carried his team on his back to beat a superior Pistons team.

 

It's not like Dirk has multiple rings on his mantle either, and neither does anyone else in the top-10 other than Kobe. He's played with superior teammates to Lebron his entire career and still finally just got his ring this year. He had a brilliant playoff run, but that doesn't wipe out things like losing to Golden State in the first round (though people treat it that way). It also had some seriously fluky occurrences, like the Game 2 comeback and Dallas shooting like 700% from deep in game 5. It's not like they thoroughly crushed Miami, a few plays here and there and it could have gone the other way.

 

Miami also isn't close to the most talented team ever assembled, that would have to go to one of the Celtics dynasties or the early Showtime Lakers. They have two really good players and another All-Star caliber one, but the rest of the team is crap. In the end it came down to the same thing it has for Lebron's entire career: if he doesn't put up a 30-7-7 type line, his team is going to lose against quality competition.

[Steve9347]

Wade- He's really good, but Lebron is basically a bigger, better passing version of Wade. Dwayne is also a lot more injury prone.

I heart that you refuse to spell Dwyane correctly.

[Rowand44]

I really hate the rings argument because it ignores everyone's teammates. Lebron has played with a pile of crap in Cleveland for most of his career and still has two NBA Finals appearances, one of which came because he carried his team on his back to beat a superior Pistons team.

 

It's not like Dirk has multiple rings on his mantle either, and neither does anyone else in the top-10 other than Kobe. He's played with superior teammates to Lebron his entire career and still finally just got his ring this year. He had a brilliant playoff run, but that doesn't wipe out things like losing to Golden State in the first round (though people treat it that way). It also had some seriously fluky occurrences, like the Game 2 comeback and Dallas shooting like 700% from deep in game 5. It's not like they thoroughly crushed Miami, a few plays here and there and it could have gone the other way.

 

Miami also isn't close to the most talented team ever assembled, that would have to go to one of the Celtics dynasties or the early Showtime Lakers. They have two really good players and another All-Star caliber one, but the rest of the team is crap. In the end it came down to the same thing it has for Lebron's entire career: if he doesn't put up a 30-7-7 type line, his team is going to lose against quality competition.

I never claimed that Dirk was the best player in the NBA, in fact I don't know who I'd put up there at this point. And once again, LeBron has exhausted all of his excuses at this point, there are non left.

 

And the plays here or there are the ones that weren't made by LeBron in the finals. I watched this guy against the Bulls and thought to myself "well he's finally reached that next level of greatness" and then he regressed right back to some of his old s***ty habits against Dallas.

 

Yes, I admit that I exaggerated a bit on the most talented team of all time but they were the best team this year and LeBron couldn't get them over the hump.

 

I have a hard time watching the NBA and declaring that LeBron isn't the best player in the league but until he actually wins a championship, I can't call him that.

[ZoomSlowik]

Well you're crazy. I'll take the guy with a slightly lower fg% that has the balls to take the shot over the guy that passes on the shot. Didn't it become a joke midway through the season last year when Lebron continued to get the big shot to win the game and continued to miss?

 

And again, i'm not saying that's the ONLY measure. But at some point skill and athleticism mean dick if you can't deliver wins. We're talking about who is the best of the great players. The intangibles come into play in that argument, and I think last year was pretty obvious what Lebron lacks.

 

Wade was missing a bunch of them too. The entire team was like 1-12, not just Lebron. People also seem to have selective memories with this thing and ignore all the ones that everyone not named Lebron miss. It's not like Lebron has never come up in the clutch, he single-handedly beat Detroit in game 7 of the conference finals a few years back and hit a ridiculous last second 3 against Orlando. He also carried hit a ton of big shots against the Bulls and Celtics.

Everyone seems to ignore that though because Mo Williams didn't bail him out in any of his off games like Kobe when he went 6-24 in game 7 against the Celtics.

[RockRaines]

I'd still take Kobe.

[ZoomSlowik]

I never claimed that Dirk was the best player in the NBA, in fact I don't know who I'd put up there at this point. And once again, LeBron has exhausted all of his excuses at this point, there are non left.

 

And the plays here or there are the ones that weren't made by LeBron in the finals. I watched this guy against the Bulls and thought to myself "well he's finally reached that next level of greatness" and then he regressed right back to some of his old s***ty habits against Dallas.

 

Yes, I admit that I exaggerated a bit on the most talented team of all time but they were the best team this year and LeBron couldn't get them over the hump.

 

I have a hard time watching the NBA and declaring that LeBron isn't the best player in the league but until he actually wins a championship, I can't call him that.

 

I guess I've just never bought into that. You're still the same player before and after you get your ring, people just look at you a lot differently. I don't feel like Michael only became the man in 1991. A lot of things have to go right for you to win a title. No matter how good you are, it's not a guarantee that you're going to win every year (yeah, I know Russell and MJ. Michael is an exception to every rule and Russell played with like 40 hall of famers in his career).

[Quin]

NBA labor meeting in hour 14.

 

Please let it happen.

[Steve9347]

NBA labor meeting in hour 14.

 

Please let it happen.

It'd be nice.

[Quin]

It'd be nice.

 

I will hunt KG if the NBA cancels games today.

 

Press conference scheduled for after meeting.

[Quin]

After 16 hours, meeting resumes in 7 and a half hours at 10 AM, EST.

[Jenksismyhero]

This guy sums up my argument better, re: LeBron being the best in the league:

 

http://www.foxsportsflorida.com/10/18/11/L...amp;feedID=3565

 

 

[Balta1701]

After 16 hours, meeting resumes in 7 and a half hours at 10 AM, EST.

The NBA and its players haven’t just been talking for 16 hours. They’ve been talking for two-and-a-half years.

 

Sources in the deep-into-Wednesday-morning session could point to no substantive progress despite the long hours.

 

But if you don’t want to trust “sources,” consider the on-the-record comments from the talks during Tuesday’s marathon session.

 

While discussions were ongoing, Heat owner Micky Arison tweeted about how he’d rather be having a burger on one of his cruise ships. (UPDATE: This tweet has been deleted.)

When the Grizzlies’ Tony Allen tweeted his followers to let him know whether there was a deal, Roger Mason Jr., in the talks, quickly tweeted to him, telling him to go to bed.

 

 

I asked several people who had been in the mediation session on Tuesday whether the process had been valuable to date. I didn’t get one answer … perhaps because they were honoring the gag order, or perhaps because they didn’t want to harm whatever tender chance there was of progress.

 

If you’re looking for a sunny view, let’s go back to May 17, and the draft lottery, when deputy commissioner Adam Silver said this: “That gives me optimism ... that we’ve had a longtime relationship with them, that David [stern] and Billy [Hunter] have been at this a long time, have had great success together in building this business, and I think, I’d like to think it would be irrational on both sides not to achieve a negotiated solution.”

 

Maybe that spirit persists. Or maybe it was always a mirage.

 

Moments after the silver-tongued deputy spoke three months ago, David Stern chimed in: “Despite its irrationality, you might get to a place where you can’t make the deal.”

Link

[southsider2k5]

Stern is going to crush the NBA.

[Steve9347]

Stern is going to crush the NBA.

Stern's hands are tied. There's a select-few owners who are willing to crush the NBA because their slice of profits isn't big enough.

[Balta1701]

Stern's hands are tied. There's a select-few owners who are willing to crush the NBA because their slice of profits isn't big enough.

Really, that's what you take out of all this?

[southsider2k5]

Stern's hands are tied. There's a select-few owners who are willing to crush the NBA because their slice of profits isn't big enough.

 

Stern sure seems to be leading the way, as he has always done.

[Balta1701]

Stern sure seems to be leading the way, as he has always done.

And just like last time...I think he's actually focusing on the right problems. In 1999, he was focusing on the fact that the dynasty that carried the league through the 90's (and the 2 pole system from the 80's) was ending, and so revenue growth was going to slow.

 

Now, the NBA is transitioning to an environment where the TV and outside revenue is going to become of increasing importance, while ticket sales will drop in importance. For that environment...the more games you have that are competitive, the more you have people tuning in.

[southsider2k5]

And just like last time...I think he's actually focusing on the right problems. In 1999, he was focusing on the fact that the dynasty that carried the league through the 90's (and the 2 pole system from the 80's) was ending, and so revenue growth was going to slow.

 

Now, the NBA is transitioning to an environment where the TV and outside revenue is going to become of increasing importance, while ticket sales will drop in importance. For that environment...the more games you have that are competitive, the more you have people tuning in.

 

Except he isn't. The problem is stupid owners handing out stupid contracts.

[Balta1701]

Except he isn't. The problem is stupid owners handing out stupid contracts.

There's more to it than that though...the problem is that failing to hand out stupid contracts is penalized with losing teams and losing key players to free agency.

 

If you don't hand out stupid contracts to Shaq, Lebron walks. If you don't hand out stupid contracts to Boozer, you waste Rose's years and maybe he walks after being tired of the 6th seed. If you don't hand out stupid contracts to Joe Johnson, he walks and your team falls to 9th and misses the playoffs rather than being 4th. If you don't hand out stupid contract to Richard Lewis, Dwight Howard never reaches the finals and he walks.

 

The system right now punishes owners who don't hand out stupid contracts.