2011-2012 OFFICIAL NBA LOCKOUT thread

[Jenksismyhero]

I've read a couple of different places now that the players and owners were pretty close to a deal a few weeks ago but KG f***ed it all up by getting emotional and staring down certain owners/representatives during the meetings. As i've learned very quickly in my 2 short years as an attorney negotiating, the minute emotion/pride/ego comes into the picture, logic and rational thought disappear. It's no longer about what is best for everyone in the room, it's about winning and "besting" the other side.

 

I think that's ultimately why the mediator was a great choice. They normally cool heads and get people to think/act reasonably.

[southsider2k5]

There's more to it than that though...the problem is that failing to hand out stupid contracts is penalized with losing teams and losing key players to free agency.

 

If you don't hand out stupid contracts to Shaq, Lebron walks. If you don't hand out stupid contracts to Boozer, you waste Rose's years and maybe he walks after being tired of the 6th seed. If you don't hand out stupid contracts to Joe Johnson, he walks and your team falls to 9th and misses the playoffs rather than being 4th. If you don't hand out stupid contract to Richard Lewis, Dwight Howard never reaches the finals and he walks.

 

The system right now punishes owners who don't hand out stupid contracts.

 

Hey how are those Seattle Sonics doing anyway after losing Rashard Lewis? Oh that's right.

[Balta1701]

Hey how are those Seattle Sonics doing anyway after losing Rashard Lewis? Oh that's right.

So...the Sonics should have bid enough to keep him, and that would have helped that franchise?

 

I think you pretty much just made my point. Seattle didn't bid high enough to keep their guys around. They didn't offer Lewis, for example, stupid money. The team had 1 winning year in a whole series of doldrums. And now they're in Oklahoma City.

[southsider2k5]

So...the Sonics should have bid enough to keep him, and that would have helped that franchise?

 

I think you pretty much just made my point. Seattle didn't bid high enough to keep their guys around. They didn't offer Lewis, for example, stupid money. The team had 1 winning year in a whole series of doldrums. And now they're in Oklahoma City.

 

You mean the OKC Thunder who made it to the conference finals right? And not the Orlando Magic who signed Lewis to a massive contract and lost in the first round.

 

Yes, I made my point.

[Balta1701]

You mean the OKC Thunder who made it to the conference finals right? And not the Orlando Magic who signed Lewis to a massive contract and lost in the first round.

 

Yes, I made my point.

My word...the Magic um, Made the NBA finals with Lewis on their roster, while the Seattle Supersonics no longer exist.

[southsider2k5]

My word...the Magic um, Made the NBA finals with Lewis on their roster, while the Seattle Supersonics no longer exist.

 

And yet, there they are in the conference finals anyway.

[Balta1701]

And yet, there they are in the conference finals anyway.

After signing Kendrick Perkins to....a stupid contract.

 

And trading away Jeff Green so they woudln't have to....sign him to a stupid contract.

[southsider2k5]

After signing Kendrick Perkins to....a stupid contract.

 

And trading away Jeff Green so they woudln't have to....sign him to a stupid contract.

 

And guess what, those stupid contracts will probably preclude them from signing their own stars. The owners need protection from themselves.

[Balta1701]

And guess what, those stupid contracts will probably preclude them from signing their own stars. The owners need protection from themselves.

Because the system is set up where they have no choice but to hand out stupid money.

 

Lose Perkins or Green for nothing (Both were FA's I believe), Durant and Westbrook's team gets weaker with no high draft pick available to replace what was lost. Durant and Westbrook start realizing they can't win there because their team won't spend enough to try to win (because they're saving their money to pay Durant and Westbrook). Durant has a fine career in Los Angeles.

[southsider2k5]

Because the system is set up where they have no choice but to hand out stupid money.

 

Lose Perkins or Green for nothing (Both were FA's I believe), Durant and Westbrook's team gets weaker with no high draft pick available to replace what was lost. Durant and Westbrook start realizing they can't win there because their team won't spend enough to try to win (because they're saving their money to pay Durant and Westbrook). Durant has a fine career in Los Angeles.

 

Because there are stupid owners, other owners have to be stupid. Yes.

[Balta1701]

Because there are stupid owners, other owners have to be stupid. Yes.

Or have their franchises lose money, sold, and moved to another city.

[southsider2k5]

Or have their franchises lose money, sold, and moved to another city.

 

They made $150 million on the sale of the team.

[ZoomSlowik]

There's more to it than that though...the problem is that failing to hand out stupid contracts is penalized with losing teams and losing key players to free agency.

 

If you don't hand out stupid contracts to Shaq, Lebron walks. If you don't hand out stupid contracts to Boozer, you waste Rose's years and maybe he walks after being tired of the 6th seed. If you don't hand out stupid contracts to Joe Johnson, he walks and your team falls to 9th and misses the playoffs rather than being 4th. If you don't hand out stupid contract to Richard Lewis, Dwight Howard never reaches the finals and he walks.

 

The system right now punishes owners who don't hand out stupid contracts.

 

These are terrible examples and don't help your point at all.

 

Lebron left anyways because their second best player was Mo Williams and they didn't have the talent/money to upgrade the team. Boozer is going to kill the Bulls towards the end of that contract and Rose is probably staying anyways because of Noah. The Hawks are mediocre with or without Joe Johnson, and because of that dumb deal they might have to trade Josh Smith. Howard is likely to leave anyways because they paid Lewis about $6 mil a year more than he's worth and traded him for Gilbert Arenas.

 

Spending money isn't directly correlated to winning; spending money intelligently is directly correlated to winning. Throwing massive money at non-elite players is what killed Cleveland and is in the process of killing Orlando.

[Balta1701]

These are terrible examples and don't help your point at all.

 

Lebron left anyways because their second best player was Mo Williams and they didn't have the talent/money to upgrade the team. Boozer is going to kill the Bulls towards the end of that contract and Rose is probably staying anyways because of Noah. The Hawks are mediocre with or without Joe Johnson, and because of that dumb deal they might have to trade Josh Smith. Howard is likely to leave anyways because they paid Lewis about $6 mil a year more than he's worth and traded him for Gilbert Arenas.

 

Spending money isn't directly correlated to winning; spending money intelligently is directly correlated to winning. Throwing massive money at non-elite players is what killed Cleveland and is in the process of killing Orlando.

Every one of those cases you're trying to exclude tells the exact same story though...a story of teams overpaying because that's what the NBA requires to keep a star around.

 

Throwing "Massive money" at non-elite players is done by every single team in the league. What we've seen in the last 5 years though is that a few teams can still spend enough to get around that. Dallas, the Lakers, Boston.

[ZoomSlowik]

After signing Kendrick Perkins to....a stupid contract.

 

And trading away Jeff Green so they woudln't have to....sign him to a stupid contract.

 

Durant re-upped before they acquired Perkins because they had a young core with potential. Perkins is just a veteran role player to get them closer to their goal (albiet a valuable one because he helps protect the rim).

[Balta1701]

Durant re-upped before they acquired Perkins because they had a young core with potential. Perkins is just a veteran role player to get them closer to their goal (albiet a valuable one because he helps protect the rim).

Durant Re-upped because the system is structured where that is the right decision for a 3rd year player on his first team...he would have to go through 2 1-year contracts effectively in order to reach free agency and would take less money to do so, while he can instead sign a multi-year, rich deal and then be able to hit the market as an unrestricted FA after that 2nd contract ends.

 

They added Perkins then spent stupid money on him because they're trying to "Win now"...which is what they need to do if they want to keep Durant and Westbrook after that first extension.

 

It's unusual for a guy to go through the machinations like Ben Gordon, fail to sign an extension, and then manage to get all the way to the unrestricted FA market off of their first contract. The system is built against that for the real talent.

[ZoomSlowik]

Every one of those cases you're trying to exclude tells the exact same story though...a story of teams overpaying because that's what the NBA requires to keep a star around.

 

Throwing "Massive money" at non-elite players is done by every single team in the league. What we've seen in the last 5 years though is that a few teams can still spend enough to get around that. Dallas, the Lakers, Boston.

 

No, building a good team is what is required to keep a star around. Duncan didn't stay in San Antonio because they spent a ton of money, he stayed there because they smartly drafted Parker and Ginobili to give him a ton of help. They also let Stephen Jackson go rather than pay him a ton of money because they knew they couldn't afford it.

 

I think you and I have different definitions of "massive money" as well. What awful contracts do those teams have exactly? A few MLE ones in the $7 mil range? Those aren't the deals that kill you unless you have like four of them.

 

The Lakers' top four players are pretty much worth the contracts their getting (well, Bynum when he's healthy). Boston's big four are fine, in fact Rondo is probably underpaid. Dallas only have one guy making significantly over $10 mil. Everyone else is pretty much market rate (outside of Haywood, who was an MLE addition).

 

There's a really big difference between using the MLE for some role players when you already have the core and making massive additions that are supposed to be part of your core but aren't that good.

[ZoomSlowik]

Durant Re-upped because the system is structured where that is the right decision for a 3rd year player on his first team...he would have to go through 2 1-year contracts effectively in order to reach free agency and would take less money to do so, while he can instead sign a multi-year, rich deal and then be able to hit the market as an unrestricted FA after that 2nd contract ends.

 

They added Perkins then spent stupid money on him because they're trying to "Win now"...which is what they need to do if they want to keep Durant and Westbrook after that first extension.

 

It's unusual for a guy to go through the machinations like Ben Gordon, fail to sign an extension, and then manage to get all the way to the unrestricted FA market off of their first contract. The system is built against that for the real talent.

 

Again, Perkins isn't the reason they're winning now. It's Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden. When you already have those guys, $8 mil for a guy to defend the rim isn't really a dumb decision. They have the core to support one somewhat iffy contract to fill a need, Orlando and Cleveland just ended up with total crap around their one star.

 

And yes, Durant gets a bit more money now because he signed the extension. However, he's also making a bit less over the next few years. Instead of starting at the max salary next year, he's making $15 mil. That means he makes progressively less than he could have each of the next several years as well.

 

If he really wanted to, he could have left or included an opt out clause like the other stars, but he's committed to OKC because they are built the right way; through good drafting and wise cap management rather than just picking up whatever $14 million semi-star they can get from a struggling team.

Edited October 19, 2011 by ZoomSlowik

[Balta1701]

Yes, I'd say that in the NBA, the contracts that really hurt you are the ones that are at the MLE or in the area above it. Caron Butler getting $10 million, Tyson Chandler getting $12 million, Haywood (He's going to be making $9 million+ in 2015 for crying out loud), Terry for $10 million, Kidd at $8 million.

 

If the Mavericks were playing to a $60 million salary limit, then every one of those contracts would be as much of an albatross as Luol Deng's looked to be or as the ones in Detroit are. The guys can all play, but none of them are worth that price. That's $50 million, basically the entire salary cap, locked up in Caron Butler, Tyson Chandler, Brendan Haywood, Jason Terry, and Jason Kidd. The Mavericks have an owner willing and able to spend well up and beyond the cap to make that work. Put that in Sacramento and that's an 18 win team.

[ZoomSlowik]

Yes, I'd say that in the NBA, the contracts that really hurt you are the ones that are at the MLE or in the area above it. Caron Butler getting $10 million, Tyson Chandler getting $12 million, Haywood (He's going to be making $9 million+ in 2015 for crying out loud), Terry for $10 million, Kidd at $8 million.

 

If the Mavericks were playing to a $60 million salary limit, then every one of those contracts would be as much of an albatross as Luol Deng's looked to be or as the ones in Detroit are. The guys can all play, but none of them are worth that price. That's $50 million, basically the entire salary cap, locked up in Caron Butler, Tyson Chandler, Brendan Haywood, Jason Terry, and Jason Kidd. The Mavericks have an owner willing and able to spend well up and beyond the cap to make that work. Put that in Sacramento and that's an 18 win team.

 

Only one of those guys was an MLE signing (Haywood), and clearly it killed Dallas' chances to compete. The others were acquired in trades and make well above the MLE (the MLE is only like $6 mil, though you can give raises above it in future years), so that's an entirely different category of contract. Butler used to be worth the money and then some. Chandler was pretty damn important to them winning the title. So were Terry and Kidd.

 

If Butler were healthy, that would actually be a somewhat serviceable team. You'd have two scorers, a good post defender, an aging but effective PG. That team is easily better than the Cavs and Bobcats, probably several others too. That's all moot though because Dirk is there as well, which covers up a lot of issues.

 

On the wrong team, those are awful contracts. I never argued that paying someone like Chandler $12 million when you suck is a good contract. Hell, I was arguing that it is the main problem with these teams, even a handful of them that do have good records.

 

However, Sacramento won't (or I guess I say shouldn't) sign them because they're not going anywhere. That's not a system issue, that's a management issue. You don't see the Kansas City Royals signing $15 million players because they can't afford it and they know they're not going to win. So why can't GM's and owners realize the same thing even in a league that actually has a salary cap?

 

The system didn't force the Magic to sign and trade for Lewis and give him $20 million even though reports suggested they could have had him for $14 million a year. The system didn't force the Wizards to give Arenas a max deal coming off a serious injury. The system didn't force the Hawks or Grizzlies to give Johnson and Gay max contracts before they found out if they would get anything close to that on the open market.

 

There are only two problems I see with the actual structure of the systems and contracts: they're too long and they're backloaded because of the way the CBA is written. Fixing one or both of those would get rid of some of the bad contracts, but there are still an awful lot of them that are stupid from the second they are signed, and no rules are going to fix that.

Edited October 19, 2011 by ZoomSlowik

[Jordan4life_2007]

Zoom knows his hoops. Anyway, I said this last year and I'll say it again: LeBron is still the best overall player in the game. Dirk > Bird. And Bill Russell = Ben Wallace or Dikembe Mutombo.

[Kyyle23]

Zoom knows his hoops. Anyway, I said this last year and I'll say it again: LeBron is still the best overall player in the game. Dirk > Bird. And Bill Russell = Ben Wallace or Dikembe Mutombo.

 

Anyway, i said this last year and I'll say it again: you drink too much

[Jordan4life_2007]

Anyway, i said this last year and I'll say it again: you drink too much

 

Who's better than LeBron? Bird couldn't dream of doing the things in today's game that Dirk does. And yes, Bill Russell is the most overrated player in NBA history.

[Kyyle23]

Who's better than LeBron? Bird couldn't dream of doing the things in today's game that Dirk does. And yes, Bill Russell is the most overrated player in NBA history.

 

thats my only beef.

[Jordan4life_2007]

thats my only beef.

 

Russell was built like Chris Sale. That was ok in the 60's. Now even if you added 20-25 pounds of muscle to his physique with modern training, he still wouldn't stand out in the modern game like he did back then. Those 11 rings have blinded just about everybody.