2011-2012 OFFICIAL NBA LOCKOUT thread

[Balta1701]

I wonder how many of them actually need the money?

Wasn't a substantial chunk of this revenue supposed to go to charity?

[southsider2k5]

Wasn't a substantial chunk of this revenue supposed to go to charity?

 

Irrelevant.

[Steve9347]

Seriously. And judging from the youtube videos and highlights, it's less competitive than most pick-up games. It's not like they're hibernating all summer.

 

As long as he doesn't get on a motorcycle...

...or trip on his luggage...

[Balta1701]

2 more weeks.

[Quin]

2 more weeks.

 

I hate everything.

[kev211]

http://www.ihigh.com/hawaiistream/broadcas...l?silverlight=1

 

Rose playing in hawaii right now.

[SleepyWhiteSox]

http://www.ihigh.com/hawaiistream/broadcas...l?silverlight=1

 

Rose playing in hawaii right now.

 

Thanks, I really needed that

[southsider2k5]

RicBucher Ric Bucher

Derrick Rose + Russ Westbrook pulling out of world tour, DHoward + Joakim Noah could take their spots.

 

[Balta1701]

RicBucher Ric Bucher

Derrick Rose + Russ Westbrook pulling out of world tour, DHoward + Joakim Noah could take their spots.

Well, that will substantially reduce the number of assists.

[Balta1701]

Negotiations are scheduled for today...but without the Federal Mediator.

[Balta1701]

Windhorst needs to be read/understood here. This really is the dynamic that has to be solved in some way before the lockout is solved.

A couple of days before the start of training camp in 2006, David Stern received an uncomfortable letter at the NBA’s New York offices.

 

Eight owners signed a petition that demanded Stern address the small market/big market financial disparity they felt was a serious and growing problem. Obviously, they didn’t need to write him a letter like he was their local representative in Congress; he works for them. They did so to make a symbolic point and then released the letter to some media outlets to make sure the issue became public.

 

It read: “We are asking you to embrace this issue because the hard truth is that our current economic system works only for larger-market teams and a few teams that have extraordinary success on the court and for the latter group of teams, only when they experience extraordinary success. The rest of us are looking at significant and unacceptable annual financial losses."

 

The authors of the letter were Paul Allen of Portland, Herb Simon on Indiana, Bob Johnson of Charlotte, George Shinn of New Orleans, Larry Miller of Utah, Michael Heisley of Memphis, Glen Taylor of Minnesota and Herb Kohl of Milwaukee.

 

Johnson and Shinn have since sold their teams and Miller has passed away, giving way to his son, Greg. But the situations in those markets haven’t changed.

 

In essence, that letter is the root of the current lockout. And, it is turning out, perhaps a core reason the owners can’t make a deal with the players after more than two years of negotiations.

 

Multiple league sources have emphatically told ESPN.com in the past several days that the sticking points with the players’ union do not solely break down market-size lines and that there’s unity among the owners on the need to win significant economic concessions from the players.

 

But there seems to be a difference between unity and harmony.

 

TrueHoop’s Henry Abbott reported Tuesday that the owners were holding a hastily-scheduled meeting in New York to further address revenue sharing issues. It comes on the heels of an owners’ meeting last week where enhanced revenue sharing was discussed -- a conversation that has been going on for nearly as long as talks with the players -- but no plan was agreed to. Stern has promised a new system that will at least triple the money being shared by teams. But so far that has just been a promise, as no plan is in place.

 

The NBA’s last collective bargaining agreement was ratified in 2005 and included an increased piece of the pie for the players in the form of a jump to 57 percent of basketball-related revenue. Just a year later, those eight teams that drafted the ’06 letter were already complaining openly to Stern that it wasn’t working for them.

 

In his podcast with Bill Simmons on Monday, union president Billy Hunter re-told a story about meeting with Stern during the 2007 NBA Finals in Cleveland, nine months after Stern received that letter. At the time, Hunter said, Stern talked about the need to roll back the players’ share and revealed his owners were already talking about locking out the union in 2011 if their demands for givebacks weren’t agreed to.

 

That was two years before an economic crisis slammed the country and further hammered the bottom lines. Since then, the number of allies for the eight owners who wrote the letter has only increased, and it has shaped the dynamic in both talks with the union and with big-market owners.

 

Robert Sarver of Phoenix and Dan Gilbert of Cleveland didn’t sign the letter in ’06, but they are now two of the biggest advocates for change in both revenue sharing and reducing player compensation. The Maloof family that owns the Kings was coming off six consecutive winning seasons and was used to selling every seat when the letter was authored. Now, they are in dire financial straits and are certainly looking for reform. In addition to the Bobcats and Hornets changing hands, the Wizards, Warriors, 76ers, Pistons and Hawks have also been sold in the past two years to groups who are expecting a new CBA to be more favorable to owners than the previous one. The Nets were also sold last season, but new owner Mikhail Prokhorov is not believed to be among those clamoring for change.

 

Then look what has happened to the big-market teams. At the time of the last CBA, the Knicks, Celtics and Bulls were all experiencing some sort of down cycle. Even the Lakers were struggling, missing the playoffs in 2005 for the first time in 10 years. Now, all of those teams have returned to prominence and their revenues have soared as well, opening up a gulf of disparity in cash.

 

When the Lakers agreed to a new local television deal worth several billion dollars last winter, it only further united their small-market competition in pressing for a makeover of both the revenue-sharing system and the split with the players.

 

“That Lakers’ TV deal scared the hell out of everybody,” one league official said. “Everyone thought there is no way to compete with that. Then everyone started thinking that it wasn’t fair that they didn’t have to share it with the teams they’re playing against.”

 

Pile all of those factors together and you have a faction of owners in 2006 that has turned into a majority in 2011. They are furious that the players are getting paid so much. They are furious that the NBA's current revenue sharing ($60 million a year) is worth less than half of a league like the NHL ($137 million). And they are trying to take advantage of throwing their new weight around.

 

This is what deputy commissioner Adam Silver was referring to last week when he mentioned “robust” discussions about revenue sharing at recent owners’ meetings. This is also what Hunter has been referring to when he’s described a fracture within the ownership ranks.

 

At the heart of this labor dispute is money, of course. But there’s that other classic element at play as well: power. And who has it among the ownership ranks is changing.

[Brian]

As much as it sucks that any games have been cancelled, I will be really pissed if it gets to a point if the X-mas games are cancelled. I realize it is a Sunday with NFL this year, but I love all the games and falling asleep to the West Coast game at 11pm when it is just starting the 4th. Ha

[Balta1701]

As much as it sucks that any games have been cancelled, I will be really pissed if it gets to a point if the X-mas games are cancelled. I realize it is a Sunday with NFL this year, but I love all the games and falling asleep to the West Coast game at 11pm when it is just starting the 4th. Ha

I read this the first time through as you being pissed if the X-Games were canceled.

 

 

Anyway, I always wind up having the NBA games on for X-Mas, but never wind up paying a huge amount of attention I think. Especially if there's NFL on that Sunday, I woudln't notice a thing. Hell, if there's NFL that sunday and the games actually happen, I'd wind up flipping between the Bulls game and NFL, but would skip the other NBA games.

 

Probably about what, 3-4 weeks before they'd reach the "Cancel X-Mas games" point...but I don't see a whole lot of motivation to get this fixed quickly...especially if the owners can't agree on what they want to push for in revenue sharing terms (See previous post).

[The Critic]

The Christmas games seem to be the breaking point for the entire season, right? I've read that the "smart money" says if the Christmas games are cancelled, the entire season might follow soon after.

 

I'm not much of a basketball fan, but the NBA (Bulls and Bucks in particular) is the only basketball I will watch. So no NBA = no basketball at all for me.

This is a damn shame for everyone who enjoys the NBA. I know it pissed me off to no end when the NHL killed an entire season, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.....except maybe NASCAR....

[Balta1701]

The Christmas games seem to be the breaking point for the entire season, right? I've read that the "smart money" says if the Christmas games are cancelled, the entire season might follow soon after.

I dunno, they lost the Christmas games but saved the season in 99 right?

[smalls2598]

Especially if there's NFL on that Sunday, I woudln't notice a thing. Hell, if there's NFL that sunday and the games actually happen, I'd wind up flipping between the Bulls game and NFL, but would skip the other NBA games.

The only game on Christmas Sunday is the Bears/Packers night game. The rest of the games for that week are on Saturday, except for the Thursday and Monday night games.

 

[Balta1701]

The only game on Christmas Sunday is the Bears/Packers night game. The rest of the games for that week are on Saturday, except for the Thursday and Monday night games.

Ok, then I'd probably miss the NBA early games...some...but I could find other things to do.

[Steve9347]

I like how Bob Johnson is an author of that letter two f***ing years after the Charlotte Bobcats were born. Why'd you jump in head first to something where you can't possibly compete? MAYBE F*CKING DRAFT BETTER AND MAKE FEWER STUPID MOVES.

 

Seriously, clearly when you bought the franchise you liked the idea, but that changes two years later?

 

The lack of foresight and planning these owners has is absolutely the main problem the league faces. They can't save themselves from... themselves.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Steve9347

[ZoomSlowik]

I like how Bob Johnson is an author of that letter two f***ing years after the Charlotte Bobcats were born. Why'd you jump in head first to something where you can't possibly compete? MAYBE F*CKING DRAFT BETTER AND MAKE FEWER STUPID MOVES.

 

Seriously, clearly when you bought the franchise you liked the idea, but that changes two years later?

 

The lack of foresight and planning these owners has is absolutely the main problem the league faces. They can't save themselves from... themselves.

 

I also love that Paul Allen is on the list of small market owners griping about unacceptable annual losses when he's worth more than the rest of the list put together. Seriously, he could probably cover the losses from money he finds in his couch. How many years worth of losses would it take to equal what he spent on that massive yacht of his?

 

The biggest problem is not that the players are paid too much, the biggest problem is that the money is handed out in an extremely stupid manner. Instead of Lebron or Wade getting $25 mil, you have players that make no real impact on the team's success making $7 million-plus. Just look at the Bobcats; Corey Maggette, Boris Diaw, Tyrus Thomas and Desagana Diop will make a combined $33 million for a team that might not win 20 games. You can maybe handle one deal like that, but not four, and someone like Antawn Jamison getting $15 mil is just as painful.

 

THAT is your main problem. The middle class of players (for these purposes that will be defined as everyone between $7 mil in salary and the top-20 players) are consistently getting about $4 mil more than they should.

 

I love the idea that Mark Cuban may/may not have suggested: get rid of the salary cap but have a super-high tax at certain levels. That way the respective teams can spend what they want to spend, player movement will be a bit more fluid, and a fair amount of money will get funneled to the bottom tier teams. It seems to work reasonably well in baseball: the awful contracts are mostly grouped on major market teams that can absorb them more easily.

 

Of course it would work even better if they simply contracted a few of the teams that can't turn a profit anyways, but the NBA will never admit defeat like that.

Edited October 26, 2011 by ZoomSlowik

[Jenksismyhero]

I also love that Paul Allen is on the list of small market owners griping about unacceptable annual losses when he's worth more than the rest of the list put together. Seriously, he could probably cover the losses from money he finds in his couch. How many years worth of losses would it take to equal what he spent on that massive yacht of his?

 

The biggest problem is not that the players are paid too much, the biggest problem is that the money is handed out in an extremely stupid manner. Instead of Lebron or Wade getting $25 mil, you have players that make no real impact on the team's success making $7 million-plus. Just look at the Bobcats; Corey Maggette, Boris Diaw, Tyrus Thomas and Desagana Diop will make a combined $33 million for a team that might not win 20 games. You can maybe handle one deal like that, but not four, and someone like Antawn Jamison getting $15 mil is just as painful.

 

THAT is your main problem. The middle class of players (for these purposes that will be defined as everyone between $7 mil in salary and the top-20 players) are consistently getting about $4 mil more than they should.

 

I love the idea that Mark Cuban may/may not have suggested: get rid of the salary cap but have a super-high tax at certain levels. That way the respective teams can spend what they want to spend, player movement will be a bit more fluid, and a fair amount of money will get funneled to the bottom tier teams. It seems to work reasonably well in baseball: the awful contracts are mostly grouped on major market teams that can absorb them more easily.

Of course it would work even better if they simply contracted a few of the teams that can't turn a profit anyways, but the NBA will never admit defeat like that.

 

 

I thought they've made it known that contraction is an option they're willing to negotiate? Maybe that was just a talking point though.

 

BTW anyone listen to Billy Hunter on Simmons' podcast? At the beginning he comes off really good and states a decent case. But the longer I listened the more his arguments seemed really strained. But he did say some interesting things, like the fact that Stern approached him years ago to extend the deal with a percent drop in BRI every year (probably the best solution), but the players said no. Also Hunter said the players are willing to do a short-term deal of a couple of years with an opt out for the owners if things aren't working (what Simmons' has been advocating - split all difference right in the middle for 2 years while you continue working out the long-term issues). but the owners balked. Both sides are spinning so much bulls*** though it's hard to tell who's telling the truth.

 

What kills me is that it sounds like they were pretty close to a deal but the BRI thing was obviously getting in the way. The players wanted 53% or so, but owners wanted 50/50 minimum. I thought Hunter said that equates to about 170 million a year difference. Which is the amount of money the players are losing every week that they aren't playing. So by Christmas they'll have lost more money by not playing than a 50/50 split on the BRI would have gotten them over the course of this next deal. Again, who knows if that's all true or if that's someone fudging the numbers in their favor.

[Steve9347]

A source has reportedly told Ken Berger of CBSSports.com that the owners and players are "inching closer to a deal."

Meanwhile, a source tells Sam Amico of FOX Sports Ohio that the two sides "are very determined. They're close." We've seen signs of optimism before only to have them squashed, but we'll be watching the aftermath of Wednesday's meeting very closely in hopes that something positive will come out of it.

[southsider2k5]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baske...0,4113113.story

 

In his second set of strong comments against the NBA lockout, Chicago Bulls star Derrick Rose said the league should eliminate the salary cap.

 

"I wish it was back like where it was in the old days where there wasn't a cap," Rose told The Associated Press in Honolulu on Tuesday during a stop on the "Hoops for Troops" tour he is doing. "Back in the day, they were giving guys coming out of college multimillion-dollar contracts, so why stop it now? The game is growing. There's no need to stop it."

 

Rose is referring to the rookie scale contracts to which he is signed. The rookie salary scale contracts are one of the many items getting discussed in the collective bargaining agreement talks that already have wiped out the first two weeks of the regular season. More cancellations could come soon, and a new NBA schedule will be drafted regardless.

 

As the No. 1 overall pick in the 2008 draft, Rose was scheduled to make $5,546,160 this season on his rookie contract. The league's reigning most valuable player also made strong comments against owners during Chicago appearances to promote his new shoe earlier this month.

 

However, there is no chance the new CBA will eliminate the salary cap.

 

Rose told the Associated Press he has been humbled by the United Service organization-sponsored tour, which features several NBA players giving clinics and playing in exhibitions this week to boost morale for service personnel and their families.

 

"They're around my age and younger than I am," said Rose, 23. "Just seeing that they're fighting for us, I just let them know we're not taking them for granted."

 

Rose also confirmed he won't participate in a six-game, two-week tour over four continents that begins Sunday in Puerto Rico with other NBA stars. The Tribune reported last week that Rose hadn't committed to the tour.

 

Bulls teammates Carlos Boozer and Joakim Noah are possibilities to participate, joining committed stars like Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant and Dwyane Wade.

[Jenksismyhero]

A source has reportedly told Ken Berger of CBSSports.com that the owners and players are "inching closer to a deal."

Meanwhile, a source tells Sam Amico of FOX Sports Ohio that the two sides "are very determined. They're close." We've seen signs of optimism before only to have them squashed, but we'll be watching the aftermath of Wednesday's meeting very closely in hopes that something positive will come out of it.

 

 

[Quin]

A source has reportedly told Ken Berger of CBSSports.com that the owners and players are "inching closer to a deal."

Meanwhile, a source tells Sam Amico of FOX Sports Ohio that the two sides "are very determined. They're close." We've seen signs of optimism before only to have them squashed, but we'll be watching the aftermath of Wednesday's meeting very closely in hopes that something positive will come out of it.

 

A source has told me they had a deal done, KG stormed in, ate the paperwork, glared at everyone, and left.

[southsider2k5]

A source has told me they had a deal done, KG stormed in, ate the paperwork, glared at everyone, and left.

 

And then Joe Cowley blamed it on Kenny Williams.