2011-2012 OFFICIAL NBA LOCKOUT thread

[Balta1701]

I get "why" they have to overpay marginal players to get there, my point is why bother? The return on investment is absolutely horrible. You don't see a team like the Royals or Pirates making an $16 million a year bid on AJ Burnett very often, but for some reason that kind of thing happens regularly in basketball (obviously the numbers are a little different).

 

I guess it also depends on how you define "marginal player". I'm not talking about someone like Rudy Gay or Joe Johnson in that scenario (who while overpaid do have a fair amount of talent and probably have some drawing ability), I'm talking about deals to guys like Corey Maggette or Stephen Jackson or Emeka Okafor or Chris Kaman. Yeah, those guys have some value as the fourth best player on a contending team, but what the heck is the point on Charlotte? To win 30 games instead of 20-25?

While we're ripping the bobcats and saying that Memphis did ok for itself since its attendance went up...

 

I should point out that the Bobcats outdrew Memphis, by a non-trivial amount. The Bobcats have been ~21 in the league in attendance for the past 2 years. Memphis sat at 27th last year and 28th the year before (when they threw all that money at Rudy Gay).

[Steve9347]

You don't see a team like the Royals or Pirates making an $16 million a year bid on AJ Burnett very often, but for some reason that kind of thing happens regularly in basketball (obviously the numbers are a little different).

Excellent point. The standards of success set forth by the Royals and Pirates are clearly ones that should be emulated by NBA Franchises.

[Balta1701]

Excellent point. The standards of success set forth by the Royals and Pirates are clearly ones that should be emulated by NBA Franchises.

I missed that line.

 

Actually, you do see the Royals and Pirates overpaying for people fairly often. Gil Meche comes to mind for the Royals. Jack Wilson and Jason Kendall come to mind for the Pirates. I'd say that signing Tyrus Thomas to a riduclous contract is pretty equivalent to signing any of those guys...and the Royals/Pirates couldn't even say they're trying to keep a guy who helped them make the playoffs.

[Kyyle23]

Just out of curiosity, if this World Tour happened and one of the major stars had some crazy injury happen to them(think Shaun Livingston), do you think that they would be subject to having their contracts voided when the NBA resumed?

[bmags]

Just out of curiosity, if this World Tour happened and one of the major stars had some crazy injury happen to them(think Shaun Livingston), do you think that they would be subject to having their contracts voided when the NBA resumed?

 

I'm sure they took out insurance.

[bmags]

I missed that line.

 

Actually, you do see the Royals and Pirates overpaying for people fairly often. Gil Meche comes to mind for the Royals. Jack Wilson and Jason Kendall come to mind for the Pirates. I'd say that signing Tyrus Thomas to a riduclous contract is pretty equivalent to signing any of those guys...and the Royals/Pirates couldn't even say they're trying to keep a guy who helped them make the playoffs.

 

And when they stopped doing that and put more resources into their drafts...voila

[Balta1701]

And when they stopped doing that and put more resources into their drafts...voila

Which of course, cannot be done in the NBA, which uses a complete hard-slotting system and includes foreign players.

[bmags]

Which of course, cannot be done in the NBA, which uses a complete hard-slotting system and includes foreign players.

 

You cannot put more resources into drafting and stop making stupid player signings? Interesting.

[jenksycat]

You cannot put more resources into drafting and stop making stupid player signings? Interesting.

 

Not "resources" in the sense of MLB.

[Balta1701]

You cannot put more resources into drafting and stop making stupid player signings? Interesting.

You can stop making stupid player signings, but aside from hiring better scouts, you cannot gain any advantage by "putting more money in the draft" in the NBA. The player you pick is paid based on where he is picked. The NBA has a hard-slotting system...more stringent than the one the NFL moved to this year (when the amount guaranteed to their #1 pick declined by 60% year-over-year). Derrick Rose will get paid something like $5 million this year, and that number is fixed based on his rookie contract.

 

Bud Selig would like to move MLB closer towards this setup in the next CBA, and frankly, I'd like to see movement in that direction happen.

 

If you stop making stupid player signings...that money basically goes unspent. It becomes open cap space...which basically can be used for player signings...usually stupid ones.

[ZoomSlowik]

While we're ripping the bobcats and saying that Memphis did ok for itself since its attendance went up...

 

I should point out that the Bobcats outdrew Memphis, by a non-trivial amount. The Bobcats have been ~21 in the league in attendance for the past 2 years. Memphis sat at 27th last year and 28th the year before (when they threw all that money at Rudy Gay).

 

I didn't say Memphis out-drew them this year, I'm saying they could easily do it next season assuming the momentum they had holds up. Those teams are moving in opposite directions. Charlotte has been a fringe playoff team trying to grind out whatever they could and now they're rebuilding, while Memphis seems like they actually have a legitimate team right now.

[ZoomSlowik]

Excellent point. The standards of success set forth by the Royals and Pirates are clearly ones that should be emulated by NBA Franchises.

 

If you're going to lose 90 games regardless, would you rather do it with a $70 million payroll or a $40 million payroll?

[ZoomSlowik]

I missed that line.

 

Actually, you do see the Royals and Pirates overpaying for people fairly often. Gil Meche comes to mind for the Royals. Jack Wilson and Jason Kendall come to mind for the Pirates. I'd say that signing Tyrus Thomas to a riduclous contract is pretty equivalent to signing any of those guys...and the Royals/Pirates couldn't even say they're trying to keep a guy who helped them make the playoffs.

 

You do? The Pirates haven't had a payroll over $50 mil since 2003 and though the Royals have spent slightly more, they still have only had 4 years over $50 mil since 2000. A handful of signings over an entire decade isn't the same thing as having 4 or 5 large/bad contracts on the payroll at the same time.

 

The Bobcats have $47 mil on the books already for 2012 for half as many players and doesn't count their two first round picks. They're also only any kind of threat to make the playoffs because the East has no depth and 8 teams have to make it. Their three best players from the 09/10 playoff team are also elsewhere right now. Without Gerald Wallace and with Maggette instead of Jackson, they're going to be fighting Cleveland and Toronto for the worst record.

 

Of course part of that is that there is a salary floor in the NBA that is at 75% of the cap. That's why New Jersey had to give Travis Outlaw that insanely stupid contract. That's way too high, you should be able to have a $25 or $30 million payroll if you're rebuilding. I guess Charlotte's dumb contracts will bail them out on that front, otherwise they'd have had to keep Wallace or sign someone to a huge deal this year in a down free agent market.

Edited October 27, 2011 by ZoomSlowik

[kev211]

It's 1:30am central and we've reached hour 14 of the NBA talks.. Please figure it out.. PLEASE

[kev211]

Bill Simmons on twitter

 

82-game NBA reg season + full playoffs still in play. Need done deal by weekend. Lots of optimism now. I'd be surprised if this fell apart.

 

@sportsguy33

[Quin]

It's 1:30am central and we've reached hour 14 of the NBA talks.. Please figure it out.. PLEASE

 

I hate this lockout.

[Balta1701]

Link

NBA owners and players ended a marathon negotiation session early Thursday after meeting for more than 15 hours in talks aimed at ending the lockout.

 

They'll return to the table Thursday at 2 p.m. ET after talks ran past 3 a.m.

 

"We were able to work through a number of different issues today regarding our system," union president Derek Fisher said.

 

"We can't say that major progress was made in any way, but some progress was made on system issues -- obviously enough for us to come back."

 

NBA commissioner David Stern said he hopes to build upon the progress made.

 

"We're not going to talk about the particular progress," he said. "The energy in the room has been good; the back and forth has been good."

 

Union executive director Billy Hunter said the two sides did not discuss the distribution of basketball revenue, which has been one of the biggest obstacles to a deal.

 

The revenue split emerged as such a roadblock last week that Hunter said they should "park" the issue and turn the discussions back to the system, saying that players might be willing to take a lower number if they found the system rules more favorable.

 

"I think we'll turn to the split when we finish with the system," Stern said. "Right now, it has been profitable to turn to the system."

 

Seeking greater parity among their 30 teams, owners are looking to reduce the ways that teams can exceed the salary cap so that big markets won't have a significant payroll advantage. Players have feared that changes owners have been seeking would result in what would essentially be a hard salary cap, restricting player movement and perhaps even eliminating most guaranteed contracts.

 

"We are united on the NBA side in wanting a system that makes all teams competitive," Stern said. "We have some strong views on what the best way to do that is."

 

The sides returned to bargaining with a small group meeting less than a week after three intense days of mediation didn't produce a new labor deal. Wednesday's negotiations marked the second-longest bargaining session since the lockout began July 1. The talks stretched into Thursday morning, the first time bargaining has gone past 3 a.m. ET.

 

The first two weeks of the season already have been canceled, and there's little time left to save any basketball in November. The season had been scheduled to begin Nov. 1.

 

Less than a week after perhaps the low moment of the lockout, when talks broke down last Thursday with some nasty talk afterward, the process seems back on track.

 

"There's no question that today was a better day than last Thursday," deputy commissioner Adam Silver said. "I think it's too early -- not just in the morning -- but still in the negotiations to express confidence that we're at a deal. But there's no question though that we did make progress on some significant issues, but there are still some very significant issues left."

 

Both Fisher and Hunter expressed hope that a full 82-game schedule could still be played if a deal is reached by Sunday or Monday.

 

Stern said the league intends to play as many games as possible.

 

"Whether that gets to be 82 games or not is dependent upon so many things that have to be checked," he said. "We just think we've got to do it soon."

 

He insisted the league never wanted to miss any games.

 

"It's sad that we've missed two weeks, and we're trying to apply a tourniquet and go forward," Stern said. "That's always been our goal."

 

Talks broke down last Thursday when players said owners insisted they agree to a 50-50 split of revenues as a condition to further discuss the salary-cap system.

 

The players have lowered their proposal to 52.5 percent of basketball-related income, leaving the sides about $100 million apart annually, based on last season's revenues. Players were guaranteed 57 percent of BRI under the previous collective bargaining agreement.

[Steve9347]

Bill Simmons on twitter

 

 

 

@sportsguy33

I will cream.

[Steve9347]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski

Signs of labor optimism: Team execs cancelling scouting trips, preparing for free agency. Agents quietly reaching out to teams on players.

[bmags]

YESSSSS

AWESOMMMOOOO POWER

[lostfan]

Don't really give a s*** that the players want to keep their guaranteed contracts or the soft cap. Too f***ing bad. Bad contracts in the NBA are disgustingly common

[Steve9347]

Adrian Wojnarowksi reported in the early morning hours on Friday that a source briefed on talks says there is a "strong expectation [within the negotiations] that hands will shake Friday."

Wojo breaks a ton of big stories and none have had the weight of this one -- that a full-blown NBA crisis is about to be averted and that we may get a full season of basketball. Reading between the lines of all of Thursday night's reports, it appears it would be a colossal failure if an agreement isn't reached Friday or within the next few days. In fact, David Stern said so as he jovially ran about the sides' pressers, slapping reporters in the back of the head and shouting playfully at Billy Hunter while he spoke. Yes, things could break down, but we feel much better (and safer) telling owners to get ready for some fantasy basketball.

Woj doesn't f*** around... he doesn't exaggerate, and he has been on the pessimistic side this entire time.

 

We're going to get 82 games of D-Rose, and I could cry.

[Jenksismyhero]

I'm very curious to see how they're going to fit an 82 game schedule in. Honestly I'd prefer it if they dropped to 62, give everyone an extra 2 weeks of camp, a week of exhibition games, and then start the season. The first few weeks of this "regular" season are going to be brutal.

 

 

[Balta1701]

I'm very curious to see how they're going to fit an 82 game schedule in. Honestly I'd prefer it if they dropped to 62, give everyone an extra 2 weeks of camp, a week of exhibition games, and then start the season. The first few weeks of this "regular" season are going to be brutal.

Is there any real reason why the NBA can't wrap up its season on July 31 2012? I mean, there's an olympics in there somewhere but the NBA doesn't need to care about that.

[southsider2k5]

So who has game 3 for the Carlos Boozer injury due to the compact schedule/