Balta1701 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 05:38 PM) Exactly how many guys get $10 million their first year of arbitration? The Sox still get the same amount of years of control with Viciedo, its a question of one of those years being arb eligible vs. not being eligible. Its either 3 or 4.By 4 years from now? I'd expect that'd be pretty much standard for an all-star player, if that's what DV is.If, and I think you're a little off, the extra arb year is going to be $10 million more expensive for the White Sox, then Viciedo is going to be an MVP quality performer and some wins, maybe some playoff games, will all offset that finanicial number over the next couple of years. Like I said...it's whether you're "all in" this year or not. if we're actually All In, then what the manager wants shouldn't be stopping the team from making moves that win games. If we're instead all in on Ozzie Guillen, then give Ozzie the rope to hang himself and save Viciedo for a couple years from now when the rebuilding process is nearly finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:50 PM) By 4 years from now? I'd expect that'd be pretty much standard for an all-star player, if that's what DV is. Like I said...it's whether you're "all in" this year or not. if we're actually All In, then what the manager wants shouldn't be stopping the team from making moves that win games. If we're instead all in on Ozzie Guillen, then give Ozzie the rope to hang himself and save Viciedo for a couple years from now when the rebuilding process is nearly finished. So you're saying the rebuilding process would only take a couple of years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 05:55 PM) So you're saying the rebuilding process would only take a couple of years? Obviously there's no guarantee, but if your starting point is an $85 million salary base, which I think is clearly sustainable for this franchise, then they ought to be back at being a contender by 2015 at the latest even with a couple mistakes. By then, every one of the bad contracts we're worried about now will have cleared itself out completely. If everything is done well, this team still has it in itself to contend next year even if a severe salary cut happens (i.e. PK14, D1, and M-56, Jackson, and Thornton are traded for the best assets we can get). They still have starting pitching, they have young bullpen arms, and the guys that they need to hold onto can still recover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I'll give Juan Pierre credit for one thing: he's kept me interested in White Sox baseball and statistics just by being himself. And now I'm going to keep piling on because I find this s*** interesting Quick refresher course: ISO stands for isolated slugging, it's calculated by subtracting a player's batting average from his slugging percentage, this number gives you a good idea of a player's power and extra base hit prowess, the higher the better, the lower the worse. EX: Albert Pujols' career ISO is .289, Alex Rodriguez .267, Alex Rios .160, Dustin Pedroia .157, Denard Span .102, Juan Pierre .067. Juan Pierre is unlike any other player in baseball in that he has absolutely no pop in his bat, like none. That super fluky 2009 season where he put up a .084 ISO saved his ass because he's right around .045 in the other 3 seasons since 2008. Dating back to 2008 only 5 players in baseball have 1500+ PA and a cumulative ISO under .085, the second lowest is Ryan Theriot at .060 that leaves Juan Pierre all alone at the bottom sporting a .052. If he'd have played everyday in 2009 and put up his usual garbage numbers he'd be a good 16 or 17 points below the next lowest player and I'm not sure I could handle that. The other 3 players under .085 are Kendall (retired), Figgins (ha) and Andrus (dude's 22), not the best company. I'm really not entirely sure how Juan Pierre is still in major league baseball, there aren't any players like him in the game anymore: no pop, no BB, decent average, speedy, noodle armed everyday outfielders. Here's a fun list, the bottom 15 players in ISO since 2009 (min 900 PA), in a way I suppose I was subconsciously being kind to Juan when I chose 2009 rather than 2008 since it includes his fluky '09 but not his awful '08 season, you're welcome Juan: .052 Cesar Izturis - A relic, Izturis is a throwback SS, harkening back to the days Mark Belanger manned the same postion for the same club. Oh and the Oriols GM is Jim Hendry. .053 Jason Kendall - No longer in major league baseball .054 Juan Pierre - Starting LF and leadoff man for a club with a $125M payroll .059 Jamey Carroll - NL supersub capable of play 4 positions .064 Ryan Theriot - Odd starting middle infielder for a Tony LaRussa led ballclub .067 David Eckstein - No longer in major league baseball .069 Elvis Andrus - 22 year old elite defensive SS .071 Chone Figgins - One of the bigger free agent busts of the past decade, still playing everyday in one of the worst lineups in baseball seemingly because of his contract .071 Emilio Bonifacio - NL supersub capable of play 7 positions .075 Alcides Escobar - 24 year old elite defensive SS .077 Tony Gwynn Jr. - 4th OF in the NL .078 Edgar Renteria - Platoon SS, on his last leg in the majors .078 Nyjer Morgan - I don't even know anymore .081 Omar Infante - NL supersub capable of playing half the postions on the field .082 Skip Schumaker - Odd starting middle infielder for a Tony LaRussa led ballclub Keeping with the main theme of ISO and playing everyday in the outfield lets see how many players have logged 600 PA in a season, played the majority of their games in the outfield and managed an ISO of .045 or less which he did last season, is on pace to do once again this season and was 200 PA short of accomplishing in 2008. 2010 Juan Pierre .275/.341/.316/.657, .041 ISO 1995 Otis Nixon .295/.357/.338/.695, .042 ISO 1992 Luis Polonia .286/.337/.329/.666, .043 ISO 1989 Gerald Young .233/.326/.276/.602, .043 ISO 1979 Rick Manning .259/.323/.304/.626, .045 ISO 1959 Richie Ashburn .266/.360/.307/.667 .041 ISO Six. 6 total players since 1920 have played everyday in the outfield and displayed similar ineptitude in the power department as Juan Pierre. How about for his career? As I stated earlier his career ISO is .067, now how many players could possibly have managed 3000 PA (about 6 full major league seasons) playing the majority of their games in the outfield with an ISO at or under .067. .044 Otis Nixon 1983-1999 .056 Johnny Cooney 1921-1944 .062 Bill North 1971-1981 .064 Greg Gross 1973-1989 .067 Juan Pierre 2000- .071 Tom Goodwin 1991-2004 .072 Darren Lewis 1990-2002 .072 Jo-Jo White 1932-1944 Four. Only 4 outfielders since 1920 have amassed 3000+ PA and managed a lower career ISO than Juan Pierre. Only 19 have a career ISO under .080. I really have no idea how this guy still has a job in major league baseball. I feel like I've said this before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Great research Kalapse. But I already knew Juan Pierre sucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
typewritermender Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Has anyone mentioned that maybe Viciedo taking Teahen's place is more likely? Juan can be used for some speed off the bench, and he can start on sundays or something....any way KW can force Ozzie to start Viciedo even though Pierre's still on the squad? I understand Juan totally sucks but Teahen is even worse. And Viciedo plays pretty much the exact same positions as him - corner OF & Corner IF. Except he's a righty... KW needs to do SOMETHING though...yeesh. Show us we have someone in charge!!....There've been so many rookies making impact around the league this season--let's get in on the trend fergodsake! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Viciedo's MLE numbers update: .285/.324/.458. CALL HIM UP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 09:50 AM) Viciedo's MLE numbers update: .285/.324/.458. CALL HIM UP. Considering he had an .840 OPS last year and has improved tremendously this year, I think those MLE numbers are a little too conservative. Where you find those btw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 09:52 AM) Considering he had an .840 OPS last year and has improved tremendously this year, I think those MLE numbers are a little too conservative. Where you find those btw? There's a calculator. http://www.minorleaguesplits.com/mlecalc.html And I agree, it is very conservative. Viciedo should be able to put up a .850 OPS without too much trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 QUOTE (typewritermender @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 06:33 PM) Has anyone mentioned that maybe Viciedo taking Teahen's place is more likely? Juan can be used for some speed off the bench, and he can start on sundays or something....any way KW can force Ozzie to start Viciedo even though Pierre's still on the squad? I understand Juan totally sucks but Teahen is even worse. And Viciedo plays pretty much the exact same positions as him - corner OF & Corner IF. Except he's a righty... KW needs to do SOMETHING though...yeesh. Show us we have someone in charge!!....There've been so many rookies making impact around the league this season--let's get in on the trend fergodsake! Viciedo playing once or twice a week like teahen is doing would just be ridiculous. Viciedo also does not play corner IF. Technically Teahen doesn't either, neither of them are good at it...but having Viciedo at 3b is a mistake right now. We've moved him back and forth to positions enough, let him actually learn one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claydude14 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Just realized Viciedo and the Knights are in Rochester starting tomorrow, I'm gonna have to get to some games and see the Tank! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeavyTime Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 09:50 AM) Viciedo's MLE numbers update: .285/.324/.458. CALL HIM UP. You do realize that Pierre's current line is .257/.319/.300, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (PeavyTime @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 07:30 AM) You do realize that Pierre's current line is .257/.319/.300, right? Lol. So impressive coming from a guy getting the most ABs, making a ton of outs, rarely hitting the ball out of the infield, with no speed or defense. You're right. How could anyone want to replace someone who's so effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I'd say it's safe to assume we won't see Viciedo for a long-while. It would make too much sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claydude14 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I'll be seeing him in an hour, old fashioned double header Knights Vs. Red Wings. Got great seats too I'm pumped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Williams sounds as if Viciedo, who is batting .330 with 11 home runs and 49 RBIs, would be promoted immediately if there was a spot for him to play every day. “I admire the focus, hard work and the thought that he knows he’s put himself in a position to where he’s ready and going to be a major contributor, but also in keeping his focus at the job at hand, and keeping his head and (rear) in Charlotte versus having his head in Chicago," Williams said. "And that’s not easy to do all the time. I admire him for that. "But right now we’re going to hold tight. Ozzie likes the team that he’s running out there every day. If it turns out he wants a little more offense and change up the mix a little bit, we know we can tap into him at moment’s notice. And he knows he can get him at a moment’s notice if he wants to change up the mix." As for Viciedo's transition from the infield to the outfield this spring, "He’s pretty darn good out there," Williams said. "He’s pretty good.” http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,0,883653.story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Kenny is definitely putting this squarely on Ozzie, and I love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 10:43 PM) Kenny is definitely putting this squarely on Ozzie, and I love it. I dont love it. Pull f***ing rank. Release Pierre and bring up Viciedo. Dont let a guy who has put guys like Wise, Kotsay, and Pierre in positions to generate outs at the top of the lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 03:46 AM) I dont love it. Pull f***ing rank. Release Pierre and bring up Viciedo. Dont let a guy who has put guys like Wise, Kotsay, and Pierre in positions to generate outs at the top of the lineup. Kenny is acting so timid this year. I mean WTF. Like you said, make a decision. Bring up Viciedo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 10:46 PM) I dont love it. Pull f***ing rank. Release Pierre and bring up Viciedo. Dont let a guy who has put guys like Wise, Kotsay, and Pierre in positions to generate outs at the top of the lineup. It's fairly obvious that he doesn't have the power to pull rank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 10:52 PM) It's fairly obvious that he doesn't have the power to pull rank. That's why I'm sick of Reinsdorf's bulls*** too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 So what happens if Vic isn't that stud immediately at the major league level? Do you blame Walker? I'm a little cautious when it comes to believing a player in AAA is the answer to their problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 11:01 PM) So what happens if Vic isn't that stud immediately at the major league level? Do you blame Walker? I'm a little cautious when it comes to believing a player in AAA is the answer to their problems. The point is that the Sox are in desperate need of offense and about the only option the organization has is Viciedo yet they won't even give him a shot. If he fails he fails but at least find out. He can't produce any less than what Pierre, Rios, Dunn, Beckham, etc. have been producing. Besides, Pierre has no future with the organization yet he is blocking Viciedo? Edited June 21, 2011 by South Side Fireworks Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeavyTime Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 11:01 PM) So what happens if Vic isn't that stud immediately at the major league level? Do you blame Walker? I'm a little cautious when it comes to believing a player in AAA is the answer to their problems. You do understand that Brian Anderson's career OPS was .660 and this season Juan Pierre's is currently .615? Somewhere around .750 is average. He doesn't have to be a world beater. Edited June 21, 2011 by PeavyTime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeavyTime Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 So 2 outs, 2 on, down 3 in the bottom of the 9th. Would you rather have Juan Pierre or Dayan Viciedo at the plate? Argument over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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